Working Caregivers: The Invisible Employees

Empathy at Work: Supporting Caregivers and Building Trust in the Workplace with Lee Hafner

• Selma Archer & Zack Demopoulos • Season 1 • Episode 7

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In this episode of Working Caregivers, we have an insightful conversation into the challenges faced by working caregivers and explore how employers can build trust and support systems for this often invisible yet essential workforce. Selma and Zach are joined by Lee Hafner, an accomplished writer and editor at Employee Benefit News, who shares her insights into the growing caregiving crisis and practical ways organizations can address it.

We discuss the importance of empathy in leadership, the role of storytelling in fostering a supportive workplace culture, and simple, cost-effective strategies employers can adopt to create a more inclusive environment. Whether you're a caregiver, an HR professional, or a leader seeking to make a difference, this episode is packed with actionable advice and inspiring stories.

Episode Highlights

[1:39] – The significance of National Family Caregiver Month and this year's theme: “Caregivers Around the Clock.”

[2:55] – Introducing Lee Hafner: her advocacy for caregivers and her professional journey inspired by personal experiences.

[4:31] – The multifaceted challenges caregivers face and why employers should address them holistically.

[9:08] – How leaders can start conversations about caregiving in the workplace and the importance of sharing personal experiences.

[13:15] – Balancing employee privacy with data collection: creative approaches to understanding and supporting caregivers.

[22:07] – A challenge to leaders: how a simple conversation can transform employee relationships.

[29:46] – Empowering caregivers: practical tips to build visibility and find support within the workplace.

Links & Resources

Thank you for tuning in! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review. Together, we can raise awareness and create a more supportive workplace for working caregivers. Be sure to check out our website, Invisible Employee Advocates, to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book, and stay connected. See you in the next episode!

Lee Hafner:

If they have any caregiving experience, share it 100% leaders from the top down need to be talking about their own experiences. In order to lay that foundation of a comfort level for their workforce, they're going to get people who open up, if they do that more and if they don't have any caregiving experience, if this is a new thing for them, talk to your management levels, maybe you'll learn things that they know, that they just haven't felt the need to take up the chain. You know this is something they're trying to deal with, or work with their employees, one on one.

Unknown:

Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States, and by 2025 this number is expected to grow to 62.5 million. 73% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers, the invisible employees is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach Dimopoulos on the working caregivers the invisible employees podcast as they show you how to support working caregivers.

Zack Demopoulos:

Hello, everybody. Welcome again to working caregivers, the invisible employee podcast. We thank you for tuning in and for listening and for subscribing. Hey, Selma,

Selma Archer:

hi Zach, how are you?

Zack Demopoulos:

I'm doing great. I'm doing fantastic. By the time this show airs, we're going to be in November. So tell me what's happening with you in November.

Selma Archer:

November, we will be celebrating national family caregiver month, so lots of exciting activities going on next month. What's

Zack Demopoulos:

the theme this year for that?

Selma Archer:

That is caregivers around the clock? Wow, actually, no, it coincides with, I guess we were prophetic or something, because the first chapter of our book we named a working caregiver is always on the clock. Yes, so yes, really, it's an important footnote in this whole area of care, that when you're a caregiver, you're always working, always

Zack Demopoulos:

i i appreciate that, and so shout out to all the unpaid family caregivers that are either listening in or employees they're on the journey. Just so much. Appreciate you. Please know that you're not alone, and we're trying to make you more visible in your workplace, and that's what we're talking about today. We've got an amazing guest today, Lee Hafner of Employee Benefit news. She's incredible editor, writer, advocate. I read every single thing that she writes, and I'm going to encourage everybody out there to do the same and connect with her. Lee, how are you welcome?

Lee Hafner:

I am doing awesome. Thank you. Zach and Sela. I am very excited to be here. Oh

Zack Demopoulos:

man, so such a pleasure to have you. We're gonna jump right into this conversation, but before we do that, we always like to ask our guests, tell us some fun fact or something interesting about where you reside. So

Lee Hafner:

I live right outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, and I will say that the most fun part is how much this area has to offer between the culture, the sports, the schools. It's called the city of oaks. It's called the Smithsonian of the South. It's called the live music capital of the South. We are very blessed to live where we live. I absolutely

Zack Demopoulos:

love that area. As you know, I'm from North Carolina myself, so absolutely love that. Thank you for sharing that. And so for all of you out there, take a visit, because Western Carolina could with the what's what's happened over the last couple months, they could certainly use our support out there and and help them out. So thank you, Lee. All right, let's jump into you were an incredible writer for the employee I will, I want to say, but also for employers. I hope employers are reading what you're writing, because there are so many ways to support employees in different ways work life, and certainly, if employers do this, they're going to do a much better job recruiting, retaining. But in particular, today, we want to talk about what you've written on caregiving, you've done some great content on that, and we've included you in our book. So tell us a little bit about why caregiving, what got you into that? What's inspired you to talk about that

Lee Hafner:

before I started at EDN on the personal side of things, I watched my mother go through figuring out and navigating the caregiving situation with my grandmother, and the challenges that came from that, the obstacles that were always seemingly present with that, and how frustrating it was, and me being in a distance, it was frustrating in a different way, trying to figure out why things weren't easier and more streamlined and. When I started at Employee Benefit news, I had the privilege of being able to do a research report about caregiving, and I learned so much, and I think that's what you're referring to within your book. But on top of that, I've also gotten to talk to these amazing leaders, the C suite, the HR leaders, these people who are creating platforms for caregivers to help them out, and that has been the best thing. The team at Ebn is amazing. We've covered this topic a lot. All of us are passionate about it at different levels and for different reasons. So I've been very lucky to be able to learn more about it and also write about it, get the word out there about what people are doing that is so great.

Zack Demopoulos:

I mean, I would agree with you. I think leaders are fantastic, especially the ones that are really interested in this. And I gotta say, some leaders, though, are a little hesitant, because they just don't have any caregiving experience. Have you had anything like that? Have you had any conversations like that with some leaders?

Lee Hafner:

Yes, I think that it's not that they don't want to do things to help their workforce. They do they're here for it. It's a matter. It seems a figuring out the right angles and avenues to take when it comes to the perfect solution. And I think what a lot of employers sometimes get caught up in is I've got to figure out the exact right thing when, in fact, there is no perfect for an entire workforce. And so coming in with the attitude that I mean, to be honest, most of the leaders I talk to have is we deeply care about our people. They are our most important asset, but we haven't quite figured out the correct point solutions or right ways to communicate like you were just talking about it's a challenge. And so I think that it's not for lack of wanting to do the right thing. It's a matter of figuring out what that right thing is. So communicating with your workforce, listening, talking to them, gathering feedback, I think are just beyond important. And so the other thing about this that I don't think maybe employers fully understand, unless they've been through it like the two of you have, you can speak to how the caregiving role impacts every aspect of life, right? It's not just your time, it's finances, it's your physical, mental, emotional health, it's your professional life, it's your other aspects of personal life. It's full circle. So I think that employers also need to open themselves up to the idea that perhaps some of the benefits that they're looking at or that they already have are tremendously helpful for caregivers. And maybe caregivers don't know these benefits exist, and maybe employers aren't putting this, you know, those dots together, but there's always more to be done. And I would just say, like so many other areas of employee support, employers are never going to look back and wish they'd done less. So start somewhere, talk to your people and see what you can figure out to get the ball rolling. Because anything and everything you can do that is empathetic and supportive is going to be appreciated.

Zack Demopoulos:

I love that no one's gonna look back and think they should have done less.

Selma Archer:

Wow, that's amazing. If you were sitting with the head of a large corporation and and they asked you, okay, we, we've we've read all your articles. We're much more educated now about, you know, the fact that there's so many working caregivers in our organization, whether we know who they are not, what would you say to them? Would be a good place to start getting to know their caregivers, and getting to know that population and understanding more about what they need and and how they can go about that. It doesn't have to be a huge, you know, production, but something simple they could do next week or tomorrow.

Lee Hafner:

Absolutely, I would say, first off, if they have any caregiving experience, share it 100% leaders from the top down need to be talking about their own experiences in order to lay that foundation of a comfort level for their workforce, they're going to get people who open up, if they do that more and if they don't have any caregiving experience. If this is a new thing for them, I would simply say, talk to your management levels. Maybe you'll learn things that they know that they just haven't felt the need to take up the chain. You know, this is something they're trying to deal with, or work with their employees one on one. Surveys are a really popular way for employers to find out and get a good pulse, a good read of what their employees are going through, what they need. To work with caregivers within the organization, outside of the organization, to see what questions need to be asked in order to get the responses that you need to actually make a change and make positive impacts. And I would just say, you know, being a part of the groups within your organization. If there are, let's say there's a group of working parents, you know, and you've got an employee resource group, for example, for working parents. Well, that's a tremendous caregiving resource, right there. Go sit in on their meetings, learn what they're talking about. There's so many little ways to find out more. I think about your population and again, going back to one of the chapters in your book, that is my favorite one. It's this leading with empathy idea, go put yourself out there. It's not just about having an open door policy. It's about going to the doors of your employees too. It works both ways. So they're not going to come to you if they don't trust you, whatever level of leadership you may be. So establish that trust, and then start asking them, Hey, how was your weekend? How was your week? Do you have plans with the family? And you'll be shocked, I think, at what you learn when someone says, Well, you know, I went to visit my mom. She's not doing so great, you know? And okay, there's your conversation starter right there. Let's maybe learn a little bit more about this. And what kind of support do you need? How can we make this easier for you? It's it's organic, I think, in a lot of ways, if employers just put themselves out there and show that they genuinely care

Selma Archer:

what okay and doing that, what do you think about using tools like surveys, sending out surveys for employees to respond anonymously? What do you think about those kinds of tools?

Lee Hafner:

I don't think you can have too much communication and too many forms of communication so where I might not feel comfortable as an employee speaking directly to my manager, I may feel comfortable anonymously, responding to a survey question that says, Are you a caregiver, and how many hours a week do you devote to this? So one of the recent statistics that's popped up is in 2020, I think the average caregiving hours spent per week was nine they're now as of last year, around 26 they've almost tripled. So that being said, it's about approaching your workforce and meeting them where they are. So talking to them, sending out those surveys, maybe you as an employer, host a webinar for caregivers. And you see who shows up, you know, and then you get an idea. Is this something that our employees are interested in? Is this something that they need? But there are lots of different ways to get a read, I think. And so the more the merrier. This is not a, oh, we offer these resources. We talk about them once a year. I hope you remember that they exist. This is a all year long conversation that should happen just because, again, I always go back to if an employer says they care, they will find out more about their people, and then they could find out what they need.

Zack Demopoulos:

You may not have an opinion on this, Lee, but some some companies and and HR department, they're hesitant to try to get employees to self identify. They feel like that might be prying into their personal lives, which it could. But do you have any suggestions as a house to an organization could go about doing it, besides it being anonymous? Still, how do you ask those questions? And you may or may not have an opinion on that.

Lee Hafner:

I don't. It's not a professional opinion, because I'm not, I'm not in HR, but I would say that the organizations that I've had the pleasure of speaking with, you know, for example, I just returned last month from our annual benefits at work conference in San Diego, and I was moderating a panel on this exact topic, putting caregiving in place in the workplace for amazing leaders, sitting up on the stage, talking about this from very different angles, but one of the things that I heard was establishing a very trusting, supportive environment in the Workplace in general, is how you get people to talk about what they need and talk about what they're going through. So it's not gonna work for everybody. You're never going to get 100% of your workforce opening up about their personal lives. Caregiving is a very personal experience, and the other part of that, I think, too, is a lot of people don't identify as caregivers, even though they are one, right? They don't put two and two together. They're just doing what they think they should do because they love their family. So that being said, I think that if you get a read that a portion of your workforce needs this, there are benefits. That employers put into place, that may affect a smaller population within your workforce, but they're so impactful. And the other thing is, all caregivers can benefit from certain things like flexibility, and there are other benefits and just policies that people can put in place that are going to be unbelievably helpful to the caregiver on their regular day to day basis. So if you're putting things like that into place for the whole of your organization anyway, then still do those gentle questions, put out those surveys you know, have managers check in before the Monday morning meeting. Hey, how is everybody doing? If they notice that somebody is especially tired, seems to be down, going through a really rough time. Then if they feel comfortable, ask them a little bit more. No, really. How are you doing? And do it one on one. You know, single out your employees as a leader, if you can do that. And again, there's all management levels are capable of this. And co workers, you know, support each other. There's so many ways to get the support that you can benefit from within the workplace, and there's just so many levels. So I I could talk about this for a lot longer. You

Zack Demopoulos:

This is amazing. It's it's so relevant. Because earlier, Selma and I interviewed a major leader in HR, and we asked her how many years Selma, she was with them for 1010, years, 10 years. And we just simply asked her, Why have you stayed there? And she said it was because of her team members. Yeah, it was because the people that she works with. So your point's well taken. Lee, that you know, reach out to your peers too. I mean, they're there for you too, if you if you're not comfortable speaking to a manager, talk to somebody, right? Yeah, yeah, can? I got to ask you it. You may not give away your secret here, but you were at this great panel, and imagine you've got an article in the future coming. Could you give us a teaser of something you picked up that in that session, that you really excited about, that maybe you might write about?

Lee Hafner:

I've had, you know, such an awesome experience over since starting at Ebn, I've actually spoken to most of these people previously. We've done articles, we've had great discussions, and I just can't say enough about the whole group that was at that conference this year was just unbelievably awesome. But that being said, I will just say, and I think as another point for employers, there are so many solutions available now that they're probably not even aware of when it comes to the platforms available for caregivers. Caregiving affects pretty much everyone you know, and in a couple of your previous episodes, that's been so, so clear, and it's only going to grow that you know, 73% of employees are also caregivers. At this point it's going to touch your organization. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, and it's a matter of how much so looking for things like single point solutions so that your employees aren't trying to navigate caregiving and seven different platforms that can help them with their caregiving journey. You know, finding those really wonderful, consolidated benefits are really important. And I will just say that. You know, some of the folks up on that stage are really good at creating things like that and talk to brokers, talk to advisors, get help. You know, this is not close your eyes and point to a solution and hope that it works. It really is important to bring in the right thing. There is an ROI impact here. There is a financial impact on businesses. And so, you know, doing your homework, doing your research, figuring out what your people need first, then taking action with the right partners. It is a really important but so worth it, so worth it thing.

Selma Archer:

Yeah, I'm wondering in the work that you're doing, Lee, have you ever run across any leaders that have been comfortable coming forward and sharing their own caregiver experience and their own caregiver stories? And because we find that a great way to build trust with the employees, if you share your own experience.

Lee Hafner:

I have, I have, and it is so incredibly refreshing. And still it just happened a couple weeks ago, actually, and every single time, I'm still sort of blown away that these leaders are putting themselves out there because nobody wants to admit that they can't handle everything right? We all are like, I got this, but it's really important for us to say, I don't, I don't got this without support and help. And you know, it does take. Village. And so these leaders are so amazing, where they step up and say, this was a real challenge for me, or this was such a sad time for me, or this was really hard and be human. And one of the leaders that I spoke to put a LinkedIn post up about his experience because he felt it was so important to lay that to his workforce and explain where he was coming from. And I just thought, man, you know, it's, it doesn't make anybody see them as less capable, you know, like a or less of a leader. To me, that is the most like strong, wonderful thing that a leader can do, because the hardest thing to do is ask for help or say that you need somebody else's assistance in some way.

Zack Demopoulos:

We we agree so much. Lee, our experience has been that the leaders that are willing to speak up be vulnerable, they actually gain more respect, and employees are more willing to follow them. We were so blessed with Jim McMahon, who runs one 800 flowers, and Harry and David's. We asked him if he could just write a couple of words like we asked you, and he wrote a whole three pages about it, and talked about his brother, who's a high high you know, he's a president of the organization, and how he's dealing with pockets of it is just the vulnerability and just the feedback that we got from that story. And his his own organization is really doing some amazing stuff that we hope to highlight down the road. We do a newsletter, and in our newsletter, we we spotlight stories from real working caregivers, so that other working caregivers or employers can raise their awareness or help them gain a little empathy, you know, in reading about other people's stories. So yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, Selma knows I like to do. I throw a challenge every once in a while to our listeners, so you gave me an idea, Lee, and I'm gonna throw it out there. Are you ready? Some I never run these buyers. Hey,

Selma Archer:

I'm ready. I'm holding it onto my chair. Yep. So

Zack Demopoulos:

I'm gonna challenge one of our listeners out there who pick up on this and also to share it with us, to write us and tell us about it. But I want to challenge a leader who's maybe been a little hesitant and has been listening in to some of these suggestions. This coming Monday, I'd like to challenge you to reach out to one of your direct reports, or all of them, and force yourself to ask them about their weekend and just be quiet. Don't say a word after that. Don't even talk about work or assignments or deadlines, just ask them, How is their weekend? And I think that's a great point. Lee, I mean, if leaders did that a little bit more often, we would learn a lot more, and then employees could share more on their own, voluntarily. Yeah, right, absolutely. So yeah, the challenges out there. Selma, what do you think I love it?

Unknown:

I love it.

Zack Demopoulos:

We got time for a couple more questions? Someone? Do you have one up your sleeve? I know you got probably a million.

Selma Archer:

I could talk to Lee all day, especially with the wonderful articles that you write. I just wonder are, do you have any idea in terms of the importance of gathering data, we recently, and we included in our book information about the importance of data in this space and tracking it. And then you have the conflicting issues around secrecy and employees that are caregivers not comfortable coming forward. It's like a kind of a catch 22 Do you have any recommendations for balancing that, that issue, like, how do you get the information that you need to learn more about the employees so you can meet their needs at the same time? How do you get the employees to come forward to tell you what they need. It's like a closed mouth doesn't get fed, right? Yeah. So what success suggestions would you have for employers? That's such

Lee Hafner:

a good question. And so simple Selma to um,

Zack Demopoulos:

yeah, right, um,

Lee Hafner:

I think that there's multiple parts to this. And I would say, first and foremost, I couldn't agree with you more, right? Data is so important, and it's what especially you know, top leaders are going to want to see when it comes to making their decisions. HR, leaders need this stuff in place, but going back to some of the universal benefits and policies that are really helpful to caregivers. So again, that flexibility, right? If you've got workplace flexibility within your organization, and again, it's applying to all employees, not just a single population. That's going to be super helpful. If you have paid time off, if you have any sort of blanket leave policy, all. These things are going to come into play to be really, really helpful for people who are trying to navigate the situation, if, and again, it's just varying by industry. Not everybody can just call in sick, right? And there are no consequences, no problem. I'll just get to that work the next day. There are so many employees in the United States serving as caregivers who cannot do that. They're on shift work. They're the nurses and doctors in the hospitals who, if they call out, things get very, very hard. So putting things in place where, whether it's for caregiving purposes, whether it's working parents, whether it's for someone, someone you know, with their personal health, having things set up where, let's say it's a shift worker and an employer suggested this in one of my interviews quite a while back, but have the ability for those shift workers to trade places without even talking to management and going through this hierarchy. It's just this trusted thing where I love my job. I want to be here, but I can't, so I'm going to switch with this person. We've got this covered, all good and then everybody can take care of everybody else. And it also builds this incredible camaraderie between, you know, the co workers, the management, and it's just an overall good situation. So I would say, going back to the data, part of things, it is tremendously important when you are putting things into place, just assume you don't have probably the most accurate numbers go higher, right? If people, if you know that they are not all going to be super forthcoming about their situations, assume that there are some that will be wonderfully impacted by what you're going to put into place, and you may never know, and that's okay. So I think that this goes back to also talking to brokers and advisors and working with people who have a lot of experience in this. You may not partner with them forever, but just getting their feedback on All right? Well, let's look at your numbers and where they are. Let's assume that they're a little bit higher. Here's what I would recommend based on that you putting into place. Here's why this makes sense. And you know, we just, we spoke about it a few minutes ago, but the level of loyalty, the retention levels, the productivity levels, the engagement levels, all of these HR terms are going to fall into place, even if your data isn't 100% accurate, because the people that this impacts are going to be better employees all around because you're giving them the resources that they need to be present at work. You're giving them things to save them time. You're giving them things to show that you care. And those are the greatest gifts, I think, you know, outside of compensation, and for some people greater than you know that you could possibly give an employee. Wow, yeah,

Zack Demopoulos:

you know, I'd like to finish up Selma, and I make a point to make sure that this isn't just all about the employer, right? It's not the employee's burden alone. It's not society's burden alone. It's not the government's burden alone, right? Policy makers. It's everybody's needs to be part of this village, however you want to call it. So I like to kind of shift on our last question here on and hopefully it's a lot easier than Selma. So I

Selma Archer:

she handled it like a pro.

Zack Demopoulos:

She did you knew she could answer that. That was awesome. I did it. I'd like to finish up by focusing on the employee for a minute. You do a really great job with your articles. In fact, you just wrote one recently, talking about some of the work that Catherine Bagby actually does as a physical therapist about self care. And I'm a big fan of saying that self care is not what everybody thinks it is. It's more about rest and recovery. And she did, she she and you did a great job of highlighting that. So question for you is, you know Kate Washington in episode three. And I hope our listeners will go back and listen to that show. Kate Washington is a great author of the book called already toast. And she made a comment that I've never really heard it put this way, she goes. There are 53 million caregivers. That means there's 53 million stories. And as you said earlier, Lee, not every 53 million going to come forward. We don't need all 53 million to come forward, right? We do need the ones that need help, need support. What would you suggest for caregivers that are working, that are not so visible, you know, invisible, as someone, I like to put it well, what are some, maybe some things that you can think of that can help empower them to become more visible in the workplace.

Lee Hafner:

I love that question. I think that you know, as much as we talk about people maybe not wanting to come forward and sharing their stories, employees are in a very unique position in that they have a built in. Community of support around them, if it's the right environment within an organization, if an organization has built a very supportive culture, if that's just part of who they are as a company, then employees can start an employee resource group, if one does not exist for caregivers, and again, these are going to be probably the ones that are a little bit more willing to be vocal. But then hopefully those that may not feel as comfortable see this as a safe space for them, and maybe they join and they don't say anything, but they listen in, right? And how much can that help? A lot, because ideas are being shared and supports being given, and they know I'm not alone, I'm not not only alone, I'm not alone within my organization. How much of a relief is this? Because I think caregiving for so many and you guys have talked about this, it can feel very isolating. I think, you know, the support groups within the workplace are wonderful. Something as simple but very impactful as starting a channel on your employer's communication platform, Slack, for example. So there's, there are channels for everything these days, you know, and there should be caregiving channels, because I think that the smallest bits of support and information that can be gathered on a daily basis, like, Hey, does anybody have a good suggestion for in home care in the Dallas area? Right? Awesome. And so you're gonna get maybe five to 10 people giving you feedback on this. Or they say, you know, no, but I work with this caregiving platform, and they might be able to help, but you're going to come back with something really useful. And again, you're going to know that you're supported, that people have compassion for your situation. Maybe they're going through the exact same thing. Maybe they're ahead of you, maybe they're behind you. You know, there's all these different ways to feel more empowered, which I think is vital for people in this position, because you often feel so powerless as things are taking place and you're just trying to navigate the situation, and you're tired and you're working and you're balancing everything else in life. So I would say those things, and then again, what we talked about before, invite leaders to be a part of these things, because that is the way that you're going to have the voice magnified, and get leadership to understand, oh, there's a real need here. I sat in on a meeting, or I glanced at their Slack channel, and eight different people said something about, you know, not having enough time during the week to attend doctor's appointments. Well, what can we do about this? So there's just a lot of ways to, you know, to really highlight the situation and how important it is. People should know that it's okay to put their families first. And I think, like you said, That's not just the employer responsibility. They also have to step up and be part of these things and talk about it and, you know, and make their workplaces better for it.

Zack Demopoulos:

Oh, I got hairs up on my arm here. This is awesome.

Selma Archer:

You know, interestingly, Lee, the majority of solutions that you share with us today are very simple and cost effective. There's nothing that really, you know, would blow an employee out of the water, an employer out of the water in terms of budget. Why? It's just very simple, you know, straightforward solutions. So hopefully we have the right people listening in and can get started in that direction.

Zack Demopoulos:

Yeah, you said it beautifully, inviting Lee, you know, invite leaders to have the conversations like we're trying to do. And speaking of inviting, we are definitely inviting you back. Yes, I can, because we can. We could talk to you forever, but we really so appreciate you, Lee and your time

Selma Archer:

and those articles. Keep them coming. Keep them coming. Doesn't look

Zack Demopoulos:

like, doesn't look like. She's gonna give us a teaser on that future article, but that's okay. We'll just have to wait. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna encourage all the listeners to please, please subscribe to employee benefits news. It is a wealth of information that I find is actually unbiased. I think the research you guys do is really neutral and very helpful. And so if you have not checked it out, it's free, by the way. So why? Why would you subscribe? And it's a newsletter that you can get an article. So Selma, any last thoughts, comments? No,

Selma Archer:

just this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you again. Lee really enjoyed it. Definitely, as Zach said, we'll have to do it again.

Lee Hafner:

Well, thank you both so much. It has been an honor to be part of this. The work you guys do is incredible. I love catching up on all the things that you guys post and are working on. So again, can't thank you enough.

Zack Demopoulos:

Well, we thank you too. And we'd like to ask all our listeners that if you liked this episode, please. Please subscribe, please like, please write a review, but more importantly, share it with somebody that could really be benefit from it that would make our day. So thank you all for listening in, and we'll see you in our and talk with you on our next show.

Unknown:

Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of working caregivers, the invisible employees podcast every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, invisible employee advocates.com to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers. You