Working Caregivers: The Invisible Employees

The Caregiver Identity Crisis: Why Naming It Matters with Dr. Barry J. Jacobs

• Selma Archer & Zack Demopoulos • Season 1 • Episode 19

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In this episode, we’re joined by the incredible Dr. Barry J. Jacobs, clinical psychologist, author, and former journalist, to explore the essential but often overlooked world of working caregivers. From his early experience caring for a parent to supporting his own mother and stepfather through dementia, Barry brings both deep personal insight and professional expertise to the conversation. Together, we discuss what it means to be a caregiver, the emotional and logistical challenges involved, and how workplaces can better support their caregiving employees.

We also dive into Barry’s newest resource, The AARP Caregiver Answer Book, co-authored with his wife Dr. Julia Mayer. With over 150 questions answered in a straightforward, digestible format, this book is a game changer for anyone navigating the caregiving journey. Whether you're an employer looking to build a more supportive culture or a caregiver searching for guidance, this episode is packed with empathy, wisdom, and practical advice.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] - Barry on why self-identification as a caregiver matters.
[2:24] - His surprising early career at Rolling Stone magazine.
[3:34] - Barry’s personal caregiving journey and its impact.
[6:24] - Balancing work and caregiving with employer support.
[8:23] - How family experiences shaped his career path.
[10:14] - The #1 question caregivers ask: how do I get help from siblings?
[12:23] - Insights from caregiving cultures in Japan and Singapore.
[14:46] - What inspired The AARP Caregiver Answer Book.
[17:00] - Favorite chapters: sibling dynamics and self-care.
[22:18] - Why spousal caregiving is uniquely challenging.
[24:34] - Barry’s consulting work with Centene and Health Management Associates.
[28:21] - Actionable ways employers can support caregivers.
[31:34] - Advice on setting boundaries at work as a caregiver.
[33:21] - Book launch info and where to connect with Barry online.

 

Links & Resources:

  • The AARP Caregiver Answer Book (Preorder, Guilford Press): Buy Here
  • Barry’s Website: www.caregiveranswerbook.com
  • Barry’s AARP Self-Help Column: Read Here
  • “My Care Recipient’s Doctors Don’t Respect My Boundaries”: Read Article
  • The Emotional Survival Guide for Caregivers: Amazon
  • AARP Meditations for Caregivers: Amazon
  • AARP Love and Meaning After 50: Amazon
  • The New Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll: ThriftBooks
  • Dr. Spock's Baby and Child Care: Amazon
  • Health Management Associates: Visit Site
  • Centene Corporation: Visit Site
  • Episode 15 – Being a Caregiver Spouse: Listen Here
  • Well Spouse Association:
Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

We talk a lot about the need for caregiver identification, because many people don't identify themselves as caregivers. That doesn't just mean to their employer that they don't even identify themselves on their own as caregivers. But if you don't identify yourself as a caregiver, then you really don't avail yourself of the supports that exist to get to the question of identifying yourself in the workplace again, if you don't identify yourself as a caregiver to your supervisor or to some sort of employee interest group or resource group that you're involved in, then you're kind of struggling with this on your own, because, you know, mostly because you're afraid of being somehow labeled as a caregiver and unreliable if you do this. But it's very important that you identify yourself and affiliate with other caregivers in the workplace, because that's the way we change workplace culture, and that's also how we help our supervisors best address our needs and support us in what we're doing.

Unknown:

Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States, and by 2025, this number is expected to grow to 62, point 5,000,073% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers, the invisible employees, is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach demopoulos on the working caregivers the invisible employees podcast as they show you how to support working caregivers.

Zack Demopoulos:

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Thank you for listening in or watching from wherever and whenever you are. I am Zach demopoulos, and I'm Selma Archer, and welcome to the working caregivers, the invisible employee podcast. We've got another great guest today. But first of all, Selma, how are you doing out west?

Selma:

I'm great. We got 90 something degrees sunshine all the way, so I'm fabulous. Well,

Zack Demopoulos:

good for you, because in New Jersey, we're having a nor'easter spring, cold and windy and rainy. I'm just waiting for this spring to hit somewhere so but thanks for rubbing that in speaking to somebody else who's on the East Coast. Let's introduce our guest, Barry Jacobs, welcome Barry. Thank

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

you so much, Jack. Thank you so much. Glad to be here. Oh, welcome

Zack Demopoulos:

pleasure to have you. And typically, we like to open up by talking about where we live, but we've already covered that. Barry tell us something about you that we typically wouldn't know about you. How's that? Well

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

before I became a clinical psychologist, I was a journalist, and I spent about six months working for Rolling Stone press in the offices of Rolling Stone magazine back in the 80s, helping put together their second edition of the Encyclopedia of rock and roll.

Zack Demopoulos:

That's incredible. I'm a big rock and roll fan. Been to the Hall of Fame in Cleveland. I remember Rolling Stone magazine, we'd wait for it to come and hit the racks. For you younger listeners, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Well, I mean, the Maggie still exists, but you know, it's a little different. It's a little different cachet than it than it did in the day.

Zack Demopoulos:

Well, we appreciate you sharing that, and I'm sure musicians appreciate the works of who you did. So awesome. Awesome to be here. Barry, well, let's get right into it. You've got some an exciting book coming out pretty soon. We're going to talk about that in a minute, but before we do that, tell us a little bit about your own caregiver journey, if you could

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

sure. So, I grew up in a family where my dad had brain cancer while I was a teenager. When I was 14, he developed brain cancer and then died when I was 15. And so I really learned at an early age that illness like illnesses, like cancer or any serious illness, doesn't just affect the individual, it affects the entire family. My family went through a really tough time, both during his illness and then afterwards. And I mean, I didn't you know, you heard I worked at Rolling Stone. It doesn't have much to do with with with illness, but it kind of by circuitous path. I wound up in graduate school for clinical psychology, and then really found that when I worked in medical settings as part of internship experiences, I just just really loved it. I mean, I felt like I was doing work that was that resonated really deeply with me. Later on, much later on, in my 50s, I took care of my mother and stepfather, both of whom had dementia, and I did that for seven years, and I learned I knew a lot about caregiving. Before then, I had been working as a clinician with family members who were caring for loved ones but caring for my mother and stepfather kind of re educated me. I learned a whole lot more, and that's that's informed all the things that you professionally since

Zack Demopoulos:

then you were doing that while working. Yes,

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I was doing that while working. What had happened is they my stepfather had very bad Alzheimer's disease, and my mother was very. Frail and really struggling to care for him. So my wife and I moved them up from where they had been. They had retired to Florida. We moved them up to live in an apartment a mile from our home in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia, and then we got very involved in caring for them. It so happens that my where I worked, there was a faculty member in a family medicine residency program, working out of a family medicine office that was a mile from where my mother and stepfather lived. And they would, you know, my mother would struggle with my stepfather during the day. He was agitated. He was screaming at her. She would say, like, I can't handle it. Please come over and help me. And I would run, run, literally, get in the jump out of my office, run to the car, dash over there, try to get him settled down. You know what the things that I found really worked is, if I got him, could get him seated on the couch and put on the Golf Channel. He had been a really, really big golfer, and you know those rolling greens, which was very common for him, and so, and then I would rush back to my office and try to try to pick up on work again, or sometimes it was just that he had fallen, and my mother had basically asked every neighbor 12 times to pick him up, and had called the fire department, the police department too many times they didn't want to respond. And so my mother was calling me at work to come and pick him up. I would literally do the same thing. Dash over there, pick him up, put them in a chair, rush to work, rush back to work. It's

Zack Demopoulos:

probably a silly question, but, Dude, did most people at work like your employer, your manager? Did they know what you were doing, having to leave and come back, leave, come back.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I mean, fortunately, I worked in an environment where family was was really paramount. I mean, our boss, my director, he really wanted to be supportive of me and and he, you know, he himself, had a parent with health problems who He was caring for, so he got it. And I think the fact that he got it really made things a lot easier for me. He gave me a lot of latitude to do what I needed to do to care for a mom. I mean, there were times when I would spend overnight in the emergency room with room with them. It happened more than once, and then I would try to, I would go to work the next day, and I was be a wreck. And you know, he would he either he would say, come in late or go home after a little while, he was, he didn't at all hold this against me. He was very supportive.

Selma:

That's an amazing story that you're, you're sharing with us. Wow, very powerful. Yeah.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I mean, I was, I feel very fortunate. And no, they it wasn't just that I did this for a few weeks or a few months. I mean, I did this for seven years, so he, my place of work, was, was supportive for that time. I mean, toward the end, both my mother and first my stepfather, and then much later on, my mother went into nursing homes. So I wasn't, I wasn't kind of on emergency call all the time, and if someone they fell, someone was there to pick them up. But there was, you know, there were years, there were my office. Knew that if I had to run out for a little while, they would handle whatever needed to be taken care of, and then I would come back

Selma:

So did your did your personal caregiving experience influence the work that you do? I know you. You write for AARP, a caregiving column. Did that have anything to do with your experience? Yeah,

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I would say someone had everything to do with what I'm doing. I mean, you know, so my early family experience with my dad, really, I think, kind of set the path for me in front of, you know, like that. I've been following that sense of mission, of trying to help families do better than my own family did. My family had tremendous arguing dissension throughout most of my dad's illness, and then afterwards, my mother and my father's mother fought like crazy over everything. And then after my dad died, there was a big schism. They didn't talk to each other again for like 20 years. And so it was, it really compounded the loss of my dad. I mean, you know, because my whole family was sort of torn apart. And so I decided that I I, if I as a psychologist, when I eventually became a clinical psychologist, that this is, this was going to be, what I was going to focus on helping family members do a better job of this in my family did, and I as a clinician, as a as a medical educator, as also a behavioral health educator. I did this for many years, and then did a lot of writing. I mentioned that I was a journalist before I became a psychologist, so I always did a lot of writing about family caregiving. I've written now three books on family caregiving and and then I also, as you point out, since 2013 have been writing a column, a self help column for family caregivers on the AARP website, where I've covered, like every psychologically oriented topic you could think of. But I mean, I've been I've been writing, I've been providing clinical practice for caregivers, and then doing lots of public speaking for a lot of years now.

Selma:

So in the public speaking that you do, I was looking at some of the questions. That you get, and some of the responses, I just wondered if anything sticks out for you as something that people ask a lot about, or something that they're challenged with more often than other things?

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Yeah, I think that there are several questions I'll give you. I mean, the first is, you know, what am I supposed to do? I mean, it's just something as simple as, like, Oh, my mom is having problems. I'm not really sure what to do. I don't know how to talk with her. I don't know how to make new arrangements with her. What? How do I do this? That's that's very basic. But if there's one question that has come up maybe more often than any other and with often with a lot of emotion, is, how do I get my other family members, usually, how do I get my siblings to pitch in and help with the care? This is their mom, you know, this is their mom too. This is their dad too. They need to help. It shouldn't all be on my shoulders. You know, I've done a lot of work with sibling groups, bringing bringing siblings together, some of whom are really angry at one another and about whether mom or dad needs care, what kind of care they need. Who should be doing the care? I mean this, and it brings up lots of old family dynamics about, you know, who was the Bossy big sister and who was the who was the little runty brother, and, you know, who? And then, as adults, some of those, some of those old attitudes they have to over one another Come, come to the fore again. And there's a lot of anger, a lot of conflict, not always, but it's a very common question to come up, how do I get how do I get my brothers to help me? That comes up more than anything. I

Selma:

think you mentioned in some of the literature that I read, you do work outside the US as well. So

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I do public speaking. I've done public speaking in Japan and Singapore and Canada. You know, a lot of that is virtual. I don't not. I'm not getting on the plane flying to Singapore all that often. I did do a tour in Japan at one point. So, so yes, I've had the opportunity. And in different countries, Singapore, Japan in particular, have different situations in the US, much higher proportion of older adults, but also much, much better infrastructure for supporting people with with disability than we have

Selma:

see. So, so. So my question then is, did you see significant differences in the challenges and issues that people outside of the US are experiencing versus the ones that you get here

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

so much. Some of the challenges are demographic. So in a population like Japan, where something like 40% of the population is 65 and older now, I mean, it's just, or it's not quite a 40% it's going to be, I mean, that's where the trend is headed. You have fewer more people need care, and then you just have fewer numbers of younger people and middle aged people to provide the care. And so it creates greater burden on family members, and then they have to rely more on professional help. So that's, that's, that's a big difference. The other is, I mean, there are big cultural differences. There are cultures in which elder care, caring for one's elders in particular, is just as you don't think twice about it. You just do it. I mean, it's, it's, you know, you you live in multi generational homes, because that's part of what a family does. You You know, the younger people take care of the older folks. And when they get the younger people get older, they're they expect to be cared for. And the multi generational home is often a wonderful thing, but it's often it's also filled with with multi generational dynamics. I mean, you know, they get a lot of different people who have different needs, young people have needs, old people have needs. And trying to meet all those needs is very challenging for families.

Zack Demopoulos:

Bringing it back to the US. I got to tell you, Barry and Mike salmon are just so excited that you joined us on our show. Is because we need something that we could go to in terms of one source to help us. I just while you were talking, I just Googled caregiver, and it came up 805 million returns, okay? And then I added New Jersey, and it's 28 million. It's overwhelming. And so your new book that's coming out, the a the AARP caregiver answer book, is exciting for us because we're going to promote it for you. We feel like when employers and managers get asked, What do I do? You know, we need recommendations. That could kind of be an encyclopedia, just to use the word you said earlier, of questions, over 150 questions. And I love your introduction, where you really kind of introduced the concept of caregiving and how to ask questions and just important stuff that it's almost like, what was the what was the book? Doctor? Was it Spock or no? Who wrote the book about

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Dr? Spock was Yeah, yeah. So,

Zack Demopoulos:

so, so we almost need something to help caregivers, wherever they are in their journey, to to, you know, understand their expectations. So you and. And your wife, Dr

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Julia Mayer, wife of almost 35 years now, and you know, wonderful writing partner with me, besides being a great wife. So

Zack Demopoulos:

why did the two of you team up to write this? Why did you feel like you wanted to write this kind of book? Tell us a little bit about it. So

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

we had written two previous caregiving books that were different, I mean, but really, what we what we found, so she, I should mention, she's a psychologist also, and so we both have clinical practices where we see a lot of people dealing with caregiving issues, and, not coincidentally, also dealing with worker working issues, you know, being a worker and having lots of family, responsive responsibility, including caregiving. And we've been doing this for a long time, and we wanted to create a resource that would really collect the wisdom that we've gathered and the things that we've learned in one place, and provide the information in a kind of digestible form. So when people come, you know, come to caregiving, when they parent falls and breaks a hip, or when someone has a heart attack, or when they suddenly notice that the parent is more forgetful and they begin to get concerned. You know, too many people at that point say, I don't know what to do it. I know where to go. And so the purpose of the AARP caregiver answer book is to be that roadmap to kind of walk people through different steps. And we made it in question and answer form because, you know, FAQs are very popular and they're very useful, but also because it was a way of really addressing all the different questions that people have posed to us over over the years. I mean, the most common questions we've heard that come up again and again again, like the one about how to get my brother to help and this was just a way of providing something that would be ultimately useful to folks. What are

Zack Demopoulos:

a couple of your favorite parts of this book? I love the part

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

that we have a very long chapter on siblings. I mean, it's because that's, that's a very hot topic. We have a long chapter on self care. So one of the things, unfortunately, with with caregivers in general, is they're very focused on the care of the person who they're caring for, and they, they almost don't feel permitted to focus on their own care. And so, you know, they may have been someone who, prior to caregiving, you know, went to the gym twice a week and took their vitamins and, you know, had an annual physical exam. But now suddenly, as a caregiver, they're so focused on the other person that they stopped going to the gym. Maybe they don't have time for breakfast and stuff. Don't take their vitamins in the morning, and they, frankly, oftentimes neglect their own medical needs, and that puts caregivers at risk. And so, so we the self care chapter isn't just about well, you can do this, you can do that. You know you can jog, you know you can walk in your garden. All those things are in there, but it's we start a lot with how to help get over the reluctance for people to care for themselves. Because there is reluctance, and a lot of it is not, isn't you know, if you just say to somebody, if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody else, what do they do this? They kind of nod their head, and they've heard this 1000 times, and it really doesn't mean anything to them. And so it becomes kind of more engaging them around why? Why are they caring for their parent? Why is this important to them? And then if they say that it's important because their parent did a lot for them in their lifetime, or they have very strong religious views, or if they think morally, it's the right thing, then it's a question of, okay, well, how do we help you do as much of this as you possibly want to do, because, for instance, if you're caring for someone with Alzheimer's disease, that's that's a disease that progresses very slowly. You're going to be doing this for years. You could be doing this for five to 10 years. And that's not a that's not a sprint, that's a marathon. And so the question we say is, well, how do you run a marathon? And the way you run marathon, for anybody who's a marathoner, you know is you, you learn a lot about the terrain, about the lay of the land. You don't go past the water stations at mile three and five and seven and say, No, thank you. I'm not thirsty. Is when people are waving water bottles that you grab every water bottle you can you. And so by by talking in this way, we're able to link self care in a more emotional way to the reason that they're providing care for their parent or for a spouse, and that then helps convince them, because then they feel like, all right, I want to be able to care for mom as long as she needs care. And if I'm running a marathon, I'd better take the water bottles is that are being offered to me. Otherwise I will I will run out of steam, I'll be completely dehydrated and never make it to the end.

Zack Demopoulos:

I love the format of the book. I love your analogies. Just the one that you just use is fantastic. It's a cool picture. I also like that you touch on end of life, because grieving is not just someone passing away. Also losing, especially in dementia, the mother that you had or the father you had. Just last question on this, if I'm an employee and someone was going to recommend your book to me, are there any particular chapters that you would refer me to? We

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

talk a lot about the need for, first of all, caregiver identification, because many people don't identify them as themselves as caregivers. That doesn't just mean to their employer that they don't even identify themselves on their own as caregivers. But if you don't identify yourself as a caregiver, then you really don't avail yourself of the supports that exist. But then you know, to get to the question of identifying yourself in the workplace. I mean, again, if you don't identify yourself as a caregiver to your supervisor or to there isn't some sort of employee interest group or resource group that you're involved in, then you you're kind of struggling with this on your own because, you know, mostly because you're afraid of being somehow labeled as a caregiver and unreliable if You do this. But, but you really it's very important that you identify yourself and and affiliate with other caregivers in the workplace, because that's the way we change workplace culture, and that's also how we help our supervisors best, best address our needs and support us in what we're doing. So So, I mean, I think the chapters on what is a caregiver, who's a caregiver, is very important. I think the chapter on self care is very important. You know, we have chapters on managing finances, huge issue, right? Especially for folks that have may have to go from full time to part time and or even drop out of the workplace. We hope that doesn't happen, but there are people who cut back who and consequently that has financial implications for them, I mean, may affect their long term retirement plans. So there's a lot of things in there we were recommending to help people manage the current situation, but also think about the long view of how this is going to affect their family and them over time. So

Selma:

in I think it's chapter six, maybe the book you talk about, or you mentioned caring for a partner as the most stressful type of caregiving situation. Can you just share a little bit about that?

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Yeah, so those so the statistics suggest that about half of all caregivers are caring for a parent, and only like 12 or 13% of caregivers are caring for a spouse or a partner. The but the reason why it's, it's it's often considered to be more stressful to care for a spouse is spousal caregivers tend to be older, so they've been married for 4050, years to somebody, and that that person is now having health problems. And and you you live with them and and you're consequently like dealing with with their needs daily, and maybe 24 hours a day, you're doing a lot more hands on care. So there's a lot more kind of physical wear, wear and tear that you're experiencing. But, you know, those are all real, tangible reasons. But the other I think, is a kind of more psychological reason, and that is who you are, your sense of identity, your dreams for your future are very much wrapped up in this, in this person, and that this person is suddenly developing, say, Parkinson's disease, and they they're not as mobile as they were. Or if this person has severe pain, maybe from chronic, you know, really bad osteoarthritis and and they're very limited in what they can do. That doesn't just limit them, it limits you, and it limits if it makes your whole future a lot cloudier. And so for that psychological reason, it's very difficult for spousal caregivers. I just

Zack Demopoulos:

want to do a plug here for episode 15. And you know this individual very well, Barry, because you're part of well spouse for quite some time. But episode 15, we had Bob messo Giovanni talk all about well caregivers, spousal caregiving. So thank you. Great question. Solomon, thanks for your answer. Barry, yeah.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

And well, spouse Association is a wonderful organization that I've had the opportunity to, you know, and privilege to have some involvement, really supports the specific needs of spousal caregivers, which we're just, you know, overlap with but also distinct from the needs of other caregivers.

Selma:

So we know you're quite a busy guy, Barry, and one of the other, one of the other roles that you, you're involved with, is a principal for Health Management Associates, which is a national healthcare consulting firm.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Yeah, Health Management Associates, or HMAS, is, is about probably 707 50 consultants strong. It's a national firm. We have something like 30 offices around the country, and we're a full service healthcare consulting firm. So we do everything from actuarial work to leadership development to, you know, specific trainings to, I mean, it's we have folks from very different backgrounds. So. So the work that I've done there, specifically around caregiving, has been working with large insurance companies to help them develop caregiver support services for their the members, and often folks with Medicaid or Medicare Advantage to help support those members by providing education and training to their family caregivers to help those members stay out of the hospital and stay out of nursing homes, and also to help those large insurers support their own employees better. And so the best example of this that I can give you is Centene, which may be familiar with, is very large, especially the largest Medicaid insurer in the country. It covers something like two and a half million lives. I think it's in 32 or 33 states. You know, sometimes it's not a familiar name to folks, because the specific insurance products in different states have different names. They don't use the Centene name nationally, but it has 17 to 60,000 employees, and I've had the opportunity to do two things, one with them, one to work on the caregiver support services that they provide their members, so identifying specific services that may be of help to them, but also to help support their their members. And like a lot of a lot of very large companies, Centene has very active employee interest groups, and a number of those groups are very interested in caregiving. So there are employee interest groups and in parents with special needs to be kids with special needs, and there are others that are dealing with with elder care. And so I've helped Centene put together and participated in a whole series of presentations for their employees about different aspects of caregiving. There's a very strong interest for for this kind of information. And a couple of things happen. You know, in the chat, these are all virtual presentations. In the chat, this all this commentary, almost always saying, Thank you so much for doing this. I feel seen. I see I feel validated. Because otherwise people don't know my situation. And here we have this large group of people who are all in the same boat. They may be in different parts of the country, working in different markets, but it the fact that Centene does this gives them a forum where they feel validated. And then for whatever other information we import that, in and of itself, is a lot, a lot to give them. And then we import information about specific resources that might be helpful to them. With their speakers, there's usually a panel of speakers providing information on different topics, and then within the chat is this ongoing dialog from employees sharing what they've learned, what they've experienced. It so it creates a lot of support among those employees and help them connect with one another to maybe have follow up conversations after, after the presentation is over. And so, you know, these presentations, I think, have been very powerful. And you know, there's been a delight for me to be involved with them.

Selma:

No, that's amazing. So in your opinion, what do you think employers might do more of or do a better job with in terms of supporting their working caregivers.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I mean, I think there are multiple things. So, you know, there's a there's a low hanging fruit, and then, you know, as you go up the up the ladder, they get more expensive. But the easiest thing an employer can do would be say, I'm going to sponsor the local Alzheimer's walk. I'm going to sponsor a disease specific organization. Because what does that do? It said you do that recruit people from the firm to help with the event or and then that communicates everybody that number one, this is a workplace where community services value, but also that people dealing with illness are recognized and supported. I think that's an inexpensive thing for companies to do, by and large, and I think it's very powerful. I think, you know, developing and giving dedicated time for employees to attend some of these employee interest groups or resource groups, and that that's very important to tell them. It's another way of saying to employees, we value that you want to care for yourself, and this is an important way for you to care for yourself. And we're going to give you an hour a month, you know, maybe two hours a month to attend meetings where you can talk with other people within the firm and develop ideas for supporting one another. We call those low hanging fruit. Kind of more more expensive would be providing specific training for middle managers and supervisors about the needs of caregivers and how a middle manager has an enormous impact on working caregivers, and they can, they can be helpful to them rather than make their lives really crazy. And then, you know, further up. Ladder more expensive would be to actually implement one of the many caregiver support services that are available through vendors. So that could be, there's all sorts of educational services for caregivers. There's ongoing trainings in, you know, how to how to help someone take a shower, you know? I mean, you know, hopefully you don't have to do that hands on work, but some people do and there's a way to do it, and there's a way not to do it. So when employer provides that information, provides time for caregivers to gather and, you know, sponsors community events that will support caregivers all, I think all those things will really convey to their employees that this is a good place to work. If you're in this boat, and you know this is maybe you'll be more inclined to devote yourself all the more to this company when your caregiving tenure is over. I

Zack Demopoulos:

love that. That's great. Great suggestions. Listeners, hope you're taking notes. If not, don't worry. We have a transcript you can look up, but those are some really good ideas, and I like the low hanging fruit, where it's they're relatively inexpensive. Hats off to Centene and the work you're doing with them. Hats off to employers that do some of the things that you talked about. But let's face it, there are we're still trying to figure this out, and there's employers that may be not doing things, so employees don't hear about these things so they can come forward. You've already talked earlier about self identification, how important that is, and how there's ways to do that. But do you have any other tips for working caregivers that may not be as comfortable to come forward to try to get support from their employer?

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Hmm, that, you know, Zach, that's, that's, that's a hard one. Flex time is, is kind of the obvious one to you know, you can if a company really offers flex time, and then, you know, to really avail yourself of it, to make make use of it, because it matters a lot to find ways of supporting other, you know, even if you're not coming going public with your employer, but finding other employees that that may have similar circumstances, and Ensuring that you connect with them, even if it's not necessarily company sanctioned, but something that you you form for more informally and support one another, I think would be very important as well.

Zack Demopoulos:

Yeah, and the reason I was asking is because, again, I was going to your self help column, and you had a great question recently on there that actually somebody brought up in a working caregiver group that I'm part of, how do I do boundaries with my physician? They're trying to ask me to do this, ask me do that, and I'm just trying to set some boundaries. And that made me think about, you know, employees, you know, try to get, you know, some boundaries at work.

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

Yeah, makes perfect sense. So it basically would be saying, in in so many words, I have to leave at six o'clock because, you know, if you say I have to leave at six o'clock because I got to pick up my son from school, nobody asked twice. You know, do you say I have to leave at six o'clock because I need to relieve the home health aide and then feed my mother dinner and get get her into bed? Maybe you don't say that, if you're not comfortable saying that, but you ought to be able to still set that limit. Basically saying six is firm. If I stay longer than six, I'm going to neglect my family member. Yeah,

Zack Demopoulos:

great, yeah. Thank you, Barry. We're excited about your book coming out. Let us know. Tell us a little bit about when it's coming out, where as they're pre ordering. Where can our listeners find out more about you

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

sure, the AARP caregiver answer book is being published by Guilford press on July 9, and it's available through all book outlets. It could be pre ordered now, as well as through AARP and Guilford press, they have pages to pre order the book, and once the book is out, I mean, I'm hoping it'll be in the bookstores as well, few bookstores that still exist. So you know, if folks would like to contact myself and my wife, we have a website, www, dot caregiver, answer book.com, very, very simple, lots of information about ourselves, information about the other books that we've done. We've done five books, all told, and, you know, another two others on family caregiving as well. You can also order the book through the website. Just link you to Amazon or Barnes and Noble, etc.

Zack Demopoulos:

We'll add all those links because I know we have listeners driving in the car or exercising, so we want to make sure that we get all these links, and we'll put them into into our notes, show notes. Thank you so much, Barry, congratulations on identifying an important resource for us. I can't wait to get it. To be honest with you, I'd rather thumb through 150 questions and trying to go through 800 million returns on my my Google browser. So

Selma:

well that's that's good, and kudos to you and your wife, because it's amazing resource is so comprehensive. The questions I don't I was telling Zach I couldn't find anything that I could ask that hadn't already been covered in the book. It's just very well done, easy to read, and it's great resource for someone. Mean, just starting their caregiver journey, or someone who's been doing it for a number of years, it's just great, amazing. Some

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

of that, those your words mean a lot to me. Thank you so much for saying that. That's, I mean, that's what we aim to do. We know you also said something I didn't say. Easy to read this is, this is real. You know, this is information, direct information, the specific questions that people have, you know, you're not going to have to thumb through something you know, 500 pages long. This is you can go to the right chapter. The questions are there, and gives you the lay of land.

Zack Demopoulos:

You've come a long way from doing encyclopedias of rock and roll stars to today. Here, Barry,

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

I'm going to tell you something to lose. Act working on that encyclopedia, rock and roll was the most boring job I've ever done. What I'm doing now is so much more interesting. You

Zack Demopoulos:

seem it. And we're really on behalf of all working caregivers out to thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you Barry, thank you

Barry J. Jacobs, Psy.D.:

so much. Thank you Barry. Thank you Selma.

Unknown:

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