Working Caregivers: The Invisible Employees

Aging, Workforce & Caregiving with Expert Robert Espinoza

• Selma Archer & Zack Demopoulos

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In this episode, we sit down with Robert Espinoza, a national leader in caregiving, equity, and aging, for a powerful conversation that every HR professional, business leader, and working caregiver needs to hear. With personal stories and deep policy insight, Robert walks us through the systemic gaps in the long-term care system, the challenges facing our care workforce, and the real-life impact of underfunding the care economy. His message is clear: caregiving touches all of us, and we have the power to create change right where we are.

We also dive into what a thriving, sustainable care economy could look like in the future—one that respects care workers, empowers working caregivers, and ensures continuity of care for our aging population. Whether you’re in HR looking to better support your team, or a caregiver trying to navigate your dual responsibilities, this episode will leave you feeling seen, informed, and inspired to act.

Robert Espinoza is a prominent advocate and thought leader in the fields of workforce, aging, and caregiving. He is a Distinguished Fellow and Senior Advisor at the National Academy of Social Insurance, where he leads efforts to build broad, nonpartisan support for a sustainable long-term care system that meets the needs of older adults, people with disabilities, and the care workforce. He is also a Leadership & Society Fellow at the University of Chicago. He previously served as CEO of National Skills Coalition, a bipartisan, DC-based policy organization focused on workforce issues, and as Executive Vice President of Policy at PHI, the nation’s leading authority on the direct care workforce, where he directed for nearly a decade the organization’s award-winning national advocacy, research, and public education division. In addition, Robert served as a Nonresident Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution.

 

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] - Robert opens with two sides of the care story: what happens when care is undervalued vs. fully supported
 [1:37] - Selma and Zack introduce Robert Espinoza and kick off the conversation
 [4:07] - Robert shares his personal caregiver story and how it shaped his advocacy
 [6:13] - What is the care economy and how does it impact all of us?
 [8:13] - Zack discusses the aging population and asks where societal opportunities lie
 [12:31] - Robert on how employers should rethink benefits and training to support working caregivers
 [19:08] - What HR should start measuring to plan for the rise in working caregivers
 [22:04] - Creating a lived culture of care, not just policies
 [23:07] - Tips for employees to fully utilize benefits and open lines of communication with HR
 [33:26] - The undervaluation of direct care workers and the need for compensation reform
 [35:17] - Robert’s call to action: understand your care story and start where you have influence

 

Links & Resources:

 

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Robert Espinoza:

And I think you always need to show two sides of the story. You need to show the side that says, This is what happens when you under resource and under value care, right? People die prematurely. Workers can't make ends meet. Families quit their jobs, take care of their parents, like etc, etc, right? But the other side is, what happens when you create an optimal system is the opposite, right? You have workers who they already find their jobs rewarding. They just can't stay in them because they can't afford it, or they take on multiple jobs, right? But now they would see it as a career that they can flourish in. People would receive what's called continuity of care. So they would have the same nurse, the same nursing assistant, the same home care worker from beginning to end. It's super disruptive when you lose that incredible knowledge that you know workers develop on a loved one, right? And I think in general, we would live better lives. Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States, and by 2025, this number is expected to grow to 62, point 5,000,073%

Unknown:

of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers, the invisible employees, is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach demopoulos on the working caregivers the invisible employees podcast, as they show you how to support working caregivers.

Zack Demopoulos:

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, from wherever and whenever you are calling in from. We thank you for checking out the working caregivers, the invisible employee Podcast. I'm Zach demopoulos And I'm Selma Archer. Hey, Selma, how are you? I'm great. How are you, Zach? I'm excited. You got us a nice rock star guest for today. So we got to probably jump right into this. Yes, we are so excited to have Mr. Robert Espinosa with us today. He is a national leader in caregiving and equity and aging in the workforce, so we're excited to get started. Welcome Robert. Thank you, Selma, thank you, Zach. I'm excited to be a part of this conversation. We usually start by asking our guests a little bit about how they got involved in the work that they do. So given your you know, your the broad areas that you cover in your advocacy, how did you get started? Sometimes we hear a caregiver personal story behind it, absolutely and it does involve a caregiver family story. So I became involved in the caregiving, aging and workforce world in 2010

Selma Archer:

Awesome. That's interesting, because a lot of the people that we speak with, and including myself, and including Zach, we've had the experience of long distance caregiving, which makes it even more challenging. So thank you for sharing that. How are your parents doing, by the way? You know, unfortunately, they both passed away. My mother passed away in a nursing home in the first round of covid in 2020, that December, and then my father passed away much more peacefully. A few years later, he had dementia. He had an obstruction in his stomach, and he died peacefully in a hospice care unit. And I often think about the contrast and how they both passed away. One was under chaos and, you know, an understaffed nursing home, and just in the fear and uncertainty of what that all meant, the other was in a very controlled setting that was quite beautiful and spiritual, and so.

Robert Espinoza:

All of us were able to join him in ways that we weren't my mom and I think that we often when we talk about caregiving in our system, we have to recognize that we live in at least two different worlds, right? We live in a world where some people can afford to live and age and die the way they want to, and many cannot. And there are many other kind of two Americas that we live in, but in caregiving, you really see in a personal way.

Zack Demopoulos:

Robert, thank you so much for sharing that. You know, our listeners are a wide variety. There's HR, there's there's employers, there's leaders, and then there's working caregivers, and your story helps them feel not alone. So I really appreciate you sharing that I myself have a mother in a nursing home. I moved her three times during covid, and it was extremely difficult and tough from a long distance. So I can only imagine what you've gone through and try to hold down your work and do a job and and family responsibilities. So I appreciate you sharing that. Selma and I are very motivated about doing our work in the care economy. We call it the care economy. I know that word gets kicked around a little bit. What's your view of the care economy as we see it today? And where do you see we need to make some improvements. You've already touched on it. Touched on it already. But what's your view of the world today? Yeah.

Robert Espinoza:

So I also appreciate the phrase the care economy. I define it to include both long term care, so the care that we provide to older adults and people with disabilities in a broad range of settings, in their homes and assisted living environments and in nursing homes. But I also think as families, we care for people in all directions. So I also consider it the child care and early education world. I consider it the paid family and medical leave world, right? If we thought of universal family care as a broader construct, the ways in which as businesses, as governments and as society, we care for each other in so many ways across the lifespan, across generations. I think the care economy is the ways in which, you know, all of those come together to either fund or to be more accurately, under fund the kinds of services and supports and workforces that we need. So I think, you know, it's an economy that's growing. We're seeing larger numbers of older people than we ever have before. People are living longer thanks to advances in medical medicine and science, and yet, because people are living longer, we're also seeing a more acute clientele of patients and consumers right, higher rates of dementia, higher rates of cardiovascular disease, those serious, complex illnesses that require a very different level of clinical care, that oftentimes workers aren't properly trained or equipped to support, right? And there's also possibilities, right? Older people come with they're a big part of the electorate. They have enormous consumer power, and they have, and many times they have the ability to influence the spaces in which they operate. So I think the care economy is is the economy of the future, and if we can substantiate it, we can substantiate the entire economy.

Zack Demopoulos:

I appreciate you saying that I love what you said. You want a better aging reality for your for the past, for the future for today, and that is going to be a little challenging, because the future right now, from what we're reading, 2030 I'm a baby boomer. So by 2030 all baby boomers will be 65 by 2034 the first time in the history of this country, there'll be more people the age of 65 and more than 18 and younger. So just a follow up question, Robert, and because we really appreciate the work that you're doing, and then you're out there, you're hearing things, you're learning things, you're researching, but where are you seeing? Maybe some opportunities society wise. Let's just talk about society. First of all,

Robert Espinoza:

yeah, for sure. And there are a lot of opportunities. I mean, we can. We always tend to, I think, as as thinkers and as societal analyst process more the challenges, and that makes a lot of sense, because there's a lot of challenges, but there are opportunities. I mean, one is, I think as we see a growing demographic of older adults, many of whom have disabilities and require accessibility needs, I think cities, employers and society writ large are thinking about, what does it mean to create accessible communities, right? What does it mean that we don't have in many cities, available public restrooms or benches for people to sit in? How difficult is it to get into a building or throughout a building? Right? Years ago, I was young, and I broke my ankle, and I was on crutches for about seven weeks, and I was in New York City, I couldn't go anywhere like it was such an inaccessible city, right? I mean, I couldn't go down the stairs on crutches, and the entire subway system is inaccessible. And I think, you know, with an awareness of the kinds of mobility issues. Use as one example that many older people and people with disabilities face. I hope that we're creating the kind of culture that, frankly, just makes it easier for all of us to walk within, so to speak. And I use walk broadly, right? I think we have more awareness these days about our cognitive capacities and our our mental health, I think, rises in dementia rates and behavioral health issues and mental health defined broadly to include depression and so many other conditions. I mean, they tell us that there is our bodies and there are minds, and that if we holistic people who are supported in every way possible. We have to think ourselves about we have to think about our cognitive capacities, our behavioral health issues, the ways in which our minds shape and inform everything that we do. And I think we have a broader awareness around that. We have an advanced science and medicine around that. I think our culture has changed in terms of the words we use, the phrases and all of that. And I hope that you know, while I think that there is an incredible amount of political division these days that makes it difficult to find common agreement on issues, I hope that you know, certain technologies are making us more visible to other people. I think the evidence is mixed, and I can see my critics on the other end saying, actually, it hasn't right. But I also think about all the ways in which I use technology to connect to people that I otherwise would not have right. I watch movies, I read stories, I connect with family members and friends in different parts of the world. I'm transported in very simple ways into realities and environments that 2030, years ago I had no access to. So it may be reductive, but I hope that it's it's productive as we think about difference.

Selma:

Yeah. Thank you. Wow. So Robert, if we can for a minute, can we take a look inside the workplace. We know from the latest report in AC and AARP that the 53 million working caregivers that we had previously is now 63 million, and continuing to rise, and as you mentioned, will continue to do so as the population ages. How do you think employers should be rethinking their benefits and leadership training to help support this segment of workers, the working caregivers?

Robert Espinoza:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a it's a huge imperative and opportunity for business both to because it's the right thing to do. I think their employees deserve family, care, supports, but also because it makes good business sense, right? If your employees are satisfied and feel like they can do their jobs in the right way that helps businesses flourish, right? And ultimately, I think that that's it's the smart thing to do. I mean, certainly, I think there have been, for years, a range of policies and supports that high road employers have used to support workers as family members. And you can see it, for example, in what employers have done for working parents right there is they might have child leave policies, parental leave policies. They may have flexible room work from home policies. They may have the ability to dedicate a certain percentage of their monthly or weekly income to childcare support and savings and all of that, right? And certainly, some employers have been more creative than others, and some have been more stringent. But I think hopefully we are again, in a better place today than we were 40 years ago, with recognizing that, you know, it takes a lot of work to raise a child, and it's important to raise a child well, especially in those first one to two years, right? It dictates so much of how they succeed in their in their later years, right? And so I think employers can do the best right now to really look at their HR policies, their benefits, et cetera, and to think creatively. There are frameworks I think that exist out there in terms of, what does it mean to support a worker as a parent? What does it mean to support them as a family caregiver? And frankly, we're seeing a large percentage of people who are both. They're called sandwich caregivers, right? They're taking care of children and they're supporting their parents, right? And we see this rise of grandparents raising children too, right? And still working. People are working now until their mid 70s, late 80s. People 75 and older are the fastest growing age segment of the US workforce, right? And some of them are people who are choosing to work longer because they're not ready to retire, but many financially cannot afford to retire, right? So it's clear that for employers to retain top talent and for employees to. Have the full wrap around support they need to thrive financially and for their families to thrive, that they're going to need to think more holistically and creatively about. How do you support somebody as a parent and as a family caregiver? My big piece of advice always to employers is ask your employees, right? Because it's going to vary by setting. You're going to see common themes in the research. You're going to see people say, you know, things like, you know, our parental leave should be longer. You know, in many parts of Europe, it's a whole year, right? Parental Leave should not just be the mother, even though oftentimes it's the mother who bears many, much of the responsibility. It should be fathers as well, right? And single parents, parents parents that are non traditional, etc, that it should be thinking about the kind of financial support they have, because it's not always possible, I think, financially, for somebody to take that much time off. But then are there creative supports as well? You know, there might be, for example, ways for people to pull their money within employment settings that give presents to working. Can you parents or to caregivers? Do people have enough bereavement leave and grief support? It is incredibly painful to lose a parent while you're still working. My I lost both of my parents while I was on a job. And grief is unpredictable. There isn't a timing to it, right? And so some people can come back to work in a few days. That's typically what most recently policies unfortunately look like, right? And some people carry that grief for weeks, months, if not their whole lives, right? And so what does it look like to adequately support someone to grieve in order to really live the life that they want? I think that's the question for employers.

Selma:

Yep, great, yeah. We recently did a we recently had a podcast guest, and we the subject was bereavement leave, and we were discussing when three to five days come from who thought that up? You know, as you said, Everybody's different. It's very different. But one of the main things that came out of that, which kind of touches on what you just said, is you have to the employers, have to prepare the workplace for that person's return, you know, to just go into the office and slap them on the back. So sorry. What happened? Okay, I need this report. You know, that's a totally different experience than someone who comes in and is empathetic and you're probably you have an opportunity to build trust and loyalty as an employer when someone is in bereavement. So those are just some considerations, but thank you for that so

Zack Demopoulos:

much. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. And you've mentioned some. You mentioned quite a few things there, but I'm going to pick up on hoping over the last 3040, years, we've had some improvement. I know we have, but as a former HR guy and our audience has heard me say this before, you know, used to just drive me crazy, how we had some underutilized benefits, and most people didn't know about even the three day crappy bereavement policy that was out there. Even most people didn't even know about that. And it would show up to work right away, and he would handle it, you know, terribly because of like you said, grief is something we go through for a long time. I hate to say, but my conversations with some of the HR folks, we still haven't made big advancements. For example, EAP, no slam against the AP, but it's probably one of the most overspent, underutilized benefit out there, and there are ways to improve it. So Robert, I would love to hear your your insight on this, if we were in front of HR folks, which I know you're listening out there. So please, please lean forward as Robert shares his insights. As we talk to HR folks, we get it. You know, things cost money, and you have a tough job, and you get more criticized than rewarded or acknowledged, but HR does have a really good, important role here, good opportunity. What would you tell HR folks right now, as far as what they should start measuring so that they can plan forward with all the statistics that we just shared.

Robert Espinoza:

Yeah, it's a great question, and I'm so grateful to have the HR audience in front of me. I mean, it's interesting in the in the long term care sector, one of the tenants that many employers go by is this idea of person centered care, right? That when we enter a nursing home, when we enter an assisted living facility, when we receive care at home, wherever the care is coming from, it should be Person Centered that everybody is different. We have our own rhythms, our own interests, our own aspirations, our own fears. And there can be unifying approaches, but at the end of the day, every person is different, and so like the best care is the kind of care that acknowledges that and that personifies it right. And I would say the same about HR right. Policies and benefits are the bare minimum, and they should be as strong and as modern as feasible. And I know that there are always cost considerations to to account for. But are you reaching the individual when the individual goes through a moment? It's interesting you were talking about, I think you said, EHS right. I also think that there's, in my experience as an executive, the most underused benefit they had was paid time off. You would get to the end of the last month, and you'd realize that the vast majority of people, and I worked in the nonprofit sector, the vast majority of people had not used all of their paid time off. And so you would have, you know, one month when nobody was in the office. And even then, people wouldn't use would it would always give up a certain percentage of their paid time off. And I thought that is a major problem, right? Like that exists so that you can take, you can mentally breathe, right? You can enjoy your family or friends or just yourself. You can travel and express yourself creatively and spiritually. And what is, what does it say about our culture that you don't feel like you can take time off until you're finally pressured in your last few weeks, right? And so I think it comes down for me to culture, right? What are HR, professionals and others doing to create a culture so that those benefits and policies become lived. Because if they don't become lived, they just they they're not used, and they're just policies, right? Also, if they're not lived, they're never improved, right? What if the right approach to paid time off is not, you know, a certain number of weeks, but unlimited number of weeks, right? What if it? What if it shouldn't just be it shouldn't be sick days and vacation days, it should be both, and people should choose, right? And what if there are other benefits and no one's even thinking about that people need, and would make a huge difference for how present they are in their lives and on the job? I think you only get to that when you see the employee as a person and not as the beneficiary of a policy. Yeah, I

Zack Demopoulos:

love that. I love it. In fact, while you were talking, I was thinking of the statistic from the study that Salma mentioned. I believe I'm going to get the numbers wrong, but I think, like they surveyed caregivers, are you aware of respite? What it means? And many said, Yes. Have you used it in your company? I think it was down to 13% I mean, to your point, Robert, you have paid time off. Now, again, I don't want to just throw this on the shoulders of the employer and of HR. I mean, we and government and society. How about just a tip if you have for an individual, since I love the individual focus that you're referring to. What should we tell some of the employees to try to do more of to try to learn more about these because I know that some of the reasons why respite wasn't being used is there's fear. There's fear, like you said, in the culture, there's fear of, what am I going to be viewed as, as somebody who's not a producer anymore? Or, you know, what are the negative consequences? What is, what was it? What's a tip or two you would give to an individual to try to take advantage of this, because this might be right there under their nose, right?

Robert Espinoza:

Yeah. I mean, I would give them the tip that I learned from one of my star employees in my most previous role. She was that person. I think we all have them in environments where she is on top of every single benefit and policy that the organization has right and so she has the HR person on speed dial. She had no problem calling them and saying, Have I used this? Have I not? She had a checklist like dot per dollar, and she'd offer feedback like, why this and why not that? And can I replace this, and can I replace that, etc, 99% of the time the answer is yes, right? If you're doing well and it's not a huge impediment, it doesn't create any kind of injustice for other employees. You know, employers can be very flexible in making your job kind of as accessible as possible. And so I think that my tip would be for the employee. The worker is to just, you know, streamline it, right, look at all the benefits and create a checklist, codify it so that you're meeting with your HR person every quarter you're saying, I'm doing this, I'm not doing that. I would like to do this. Am I missing something? Because I think the HR person would also appreciate that. I think that there are, there's one thing that you hinted at Zach, which is, in theory, these, these should all be equally applied, and the employee should be able to access to them without any kind of kind of indecipherable punishment, right? I have worked in environments where people who take vacation, even their full vacation, get inadvertently punished, right, or criticized, or not on the job as much, or there's people taking too many sick days, and we create, unfortunately, these gossipy cultures where somebody. Who isn't giving more than 40 hours a week is somehow not working as hard, right? And it's a horrible, horrible standard to set, and yet it's the reality that many cultures have that right. So I do think it's also an executive and C suite level conversation about role modeling that you know that you're going to burn out your employees. And in a world in which employees, especially younger ones, are career hopping so quickly and turnover is expensive, it is not sound to not support your employees in the best ways possible, right? And I'll add one more thing here, which is I think covid 19 taught us a lot about how flexible we can be as workspace workplaces, and the norms that have been present for decades, right, that we just took for granted, that actually didn't reveal themselves as necessarily being true, right? And then some companies pulled right back to pre covid and say, we're going to be in the office Monday through Friday, nine to five, etc, you know, to each their own right. But I worry that in a world in which we're talking about caregiving right, what does it mean that we immediately reverted back to that nine to five, Monday through Friday in the office culture, without thinking, Did that work? Have we out? Is that outdated? I think we need to ask that.

Zack Demopoulos:

Oh, goodness gracious. So managers. Back to you. Let's first acknowledge we all have biases. We all think our way is the right way. I'll never forget where I read about a leader who would stay late feeling thinking they're supporting their employees, but then the employees thought that he was just drilling them to stay late. You know, it was really so let's first acknowledge that we're all human. We all have biases. Let's acknowledge, you know, we're not bad people, but we might not be doing things the right way, and there's better ways to do it. And then let's do something about it. Right? Yeah, exactly.

Robert Espinoza:

Yeah. I think, I think most of us, you know, are placed into supervisory roles with little training. We're almost placed in these roles like, like parents, right? There's no script or book for how to be a good supervisor, in the same way that there isn't for how to be a good parent, right? And so you go in there with hopefully some level of support, with Your Best Mind in place, and you try to do what's best, and yet you're managing, you know, legal issues, compliance issues, HR issues, you're often supervising a number of people, and then you have your own executive level pressures that have nothing to do with supervision, right? And so I think, you know, I do give flock to supervisors in many ways. And I think when it's done well, when the supervisory report key relationship is maximized in a way that feels really fruitful, I wonder how much we can learn from that, right? Instead of the punitive approach that says, Never do this when you're a supervisor, well, how about always do this when you're a supervisor, right?

Zack Demopoulos:

Yeah, they thank you for sharing that I feel very strongly about. It's a great effort that you're trying to do a program, let's say, a webinar for your company on caregiving, because people have come to us and asked us that, but if you haven't prepared your managers for the aftermath, then you're setting up for failure, and you're setting your poor managers up for failure. So I love that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing

Selma:

it. So just listening to you talk Robert and your insights. If you ever start a company, I'm happy to work for you.

Robert Espinoza:

I'll keep you in mind. I have an idea.

Unknown:

She's legal. I'm HR, no, no, no, she's legal. I'm HR, we'll both work with you.

Selma:

Absolutely. You got you got two candidates right here. So if we look ahead 10 years down the road in the care economy, what would a healthy, sustainable utopia of care economy look like to you, and what hurdles do we have to climb over to get there?

Robert Espinoza:

Absolutely, God, I wish. I wish it was only 10 years, but I love your optimism. So if I were to look into the future of what a healthy, optimal care economy would look like, I think it would have a few features to it. One is that there would be a deep and broad public and private investment in it, right? One of the biggest challenges of our care system, and all I focus more on the long term care system, less on the child care or the paid family leave system, but one of the central defining features of today's system is that it is grossly under resourced. So in most states, the primary payer is Medicaid, and Medicaid is always strained because it's not just covering long term care for low income people, it's covering health care for low income for low income people as well, right? And states have different philosophies around how much. They should invest in Medicaid, so it is, for the most part, grossly under resourced. This means that businesses and employers often don't get what's called the reimbursement rate that they need to be able to deliver good services to people. It means that a lot of people are on wait lists, and those who are on wait list often get minimal care once they get off the wait list, and it means that the workforce, that's the paid backbone of long term care, is paid poverty level wages lower than even fast food or retail industry, right? And that shouldn't be the case, right? So I always start with the resourcing and the financing of the care economy. I am a policy person, so I tend to think about the role of government, but I'm increasingly becoming more of a private sector person, and I think there's a big role for industry in the private sector. I think the more age employers, businesses, industry leaders model what it looks like to really invest their own resources and care what you know, even if it's not at the same level of what government can do, right? I think it's going to send a message that this is something we need help with, right? And I think you always need to show two sides of the story. You need to show the side that says this is what happens when you under resource and undervalue care, right? People die prematurely. Workers can't make ends meet. Families quit their jobs, take care of their parents, like, etc, etc, right? But the other side is, what happens when you create an optimal system, which is, I think what you're asking Salma is the opposite, right? You have workers who they already find their jobs rewarding. They just can't stay in them because they can't afford it, or they take on multiple jobs, right? But now they would see it as a career that they can flourish in. People would receive what's called continuity of care. So they would have the same nurse, the same nursing assistant, the same home care worker from beginning to end. It's really disruptive. You probably know this Zach from moving from nursing home to nursing home your mother, right? It's super disruptive when you lose that incredible knowledge that you know workers develop on a loved one, right? And I think in general, we would live better lives. Like, imagine if we didn't know like, imagine if we knew that we didn't have to go to work just to qualify for health insurance and Long Term Care coverage, right? Many people go to work just because they don't, they don't, they or their family members don't want to lose access to coverage, right? Whether it's health care or long term care. And I think we would create, I think, a more, a happier, more flourishing society. Well, could invest our skills and our talents and other goods, technology, the climate, etc, etc. So, I mean, that's what I imagine. I'm also, I should say, you know, I'm a leadership and society fellow right now at the University of Chicago, and we spent all week reading Aristotle. And so Aristotle's notion of, what does it mean to have, you know, a fulfilled life and one filled with virtue and one that really sees others as interconnected. I think that that the care economy really embodies that in its ideal, right, we are interconnected. The Virtue is supporting and caring for each other, and we're fulfilled when the end of our life comes and we said, hey, we've loved it better than when we started.

Selma:

That's some you mentioned the care workers, and that's something that I carried away with me from the panel discussion that I heard you mentioned there were 5 million direct care workers in this country, and they're paid low, low wages, because they're considered low skilled. And you pointed out how that they have significant training, and they are problem solvers, because they have to solve problems from one moment to the next, and their salaries don't match the level of experience, and you know, the requirements for the job. So that was one really critical point that I think you know it needs to be attacked out there. But thank you, yeah, all of your insights,

Zack Demopoulos:

yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to make two comments. I hope they sound humble. But one, thank you for shouting out my ancestors Aristotle, so I appreciate that. But second of all, I ran a home care agency for 13 years, and never once did my wife and I ever pay anybody anywhere near minimum wage, because that would have been a an insult. But B, did anybody who made this type of minimum wage decision see what what these amazing people do with human beings and kept people out of the nursing home systems that that you know are depleting, you know, budget wise. So don't get me started, but let's, let's wrap up by, first of all, again, thanking you for being the caregiver advocate that you are. I love a story of why you became one. I love a story that you had the opportunity to become one and you grasped it. So thank you for all that you're doing. Can you leave us an earth shattering call to action for our listeners so that we could just walk away no making sure we clearly understand your message today?

Robert Espinoza:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my I don't know how earth shattering it will be, but it's one that I learned quite a bit in my career. I spent about 10 years leading a think tank on the direct care workforce, and when I started, not a lot of policy leaders were interested in the subject, right? They saw they just didn't understand it. It wasn't as visible as it needed to be, even though they themselves were going to soon begin experiencing it in their own lives. Now, we helped change the conversation I'd like to believe and society changed, right? And what I noticed in those 10 years is that anytime somebody would call me directly, I led the policy and the research education division, whether it was a journalist, an editor, you know, a person in Congress, like a high influence, person who had the ability that day to make a difference, they would call me and they would realize, Wow, this is an actual issue. It was because someone in their lives needed care, and when they tried to figure it out, they realized how deeply flawed the whole system was, right? And they wanted answers really for themselves, like of course, and they wanted to use their power and their clout to leverage something greater than themselves, right? So I really believe that if we take a moment to pause and ask, what is our care story? Who are the people who are being impacted by us? Or, unfortunately, when crisis hits us and it will hit us at some point, and we see that care system, you know, respond to the moment, but respond to the greater societal need, right? We all have the ability to change something, whether it's in our our homes, our localities, our state or even our country, whether it's in our employment setting as HR leaders and managers, etc, start where you have influence, because it's an issue that hasn't affected you yet, it will soon.

Zack Demopoulos:

Thank you for that. That's awesome.

Selma:

Thank you, and thank you for coming to sit and chat with us. Despite your call. We really appreciate it so very much. Thank you.

Zack Demopoulos:

How can people learn more about you?

Robert Espinoza:

Oh, how could they learn about me? I have a podcast called a question of care, so it's available on odd podcast platforms, a question of care.us. And right now I have two roles. One is at the University of Chicago. I'm a leadership and society fellow. So there, I'm not sure what the website URL is, and the other one is, I'm a Distinguished Fellow at the National Academy of Social Insurance, and that's NAC, N, A, S, i.org but check out my podcast. I interview experts from different walks of life, helping us understand our country's caregiving system, one question at a time. So Season Two just came out.

Zack Demopoulos:

We will put those links into our show notes. We realize everybody when they listen to podcasts or watch YouTube, you're doing it and doing other things. So we want to make sure that we get those links. And thank you so much for your time and for all that you're doing on behalf of 63 million. Was it Selma? 63 million

Selma:

caregivers? 3 million, yeah, 5 million direct care workers.

Robert Espinoza:

That's right. That's right. Well, thank you both. Thank you Zach, thank you Selma, and I look forward to staying in touch.

Selma:

Thank you, absolutely. Thank

Unknown:

you. Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of working caregivers the invisible employees podcast every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, invisible employee advocates.com to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers you.