Growing Up Caregiving: The Invisible Journey of Youth Caregivers

In this powerful episode of Working Caregivers: The Invisible Employees, we sit down with the remarkable Dr. Feylyn Lewis, whose caregiving journey began at just 11 years old after her mother experienced life-altering complications from a botched spinal surgery. Dr. Lewis brings a deeply personal, heartfelt perspective to the realities faced by youth caregivers—experiences most adults never even imagine children navigating.

Throughout our conversation, Dr. Lewis opens our eyes to the emotional, physical, and invisible labor that young caregivers shoulder and how those early responsibilities shaped the advocate, scholar, and leader she is today. Her story is moving, courageous, and a call to action for all of us—employers, caregivers, and community members—to create a world where no caregiver feels alone. This is an episode you do not want to miss.

Dr. Feylyn Lewis is a Nashville native, Vanderbilt alumna, and former youth caregiver whose lived experience shaped her global career in research and advocacy. With a Master’s in Clinical Mental Health Counseling and a PhD in Social Work, she studies mental health and resiliency among youth and young adult caregivers across the U.S., Europe, the UK, and Australia. Dr. Lewis currently serves as Assistant Dean of Student Affairs at Vanderbilt University School of Nursing, where she leads student wellness, support services, and community engagement. Beyond academia, she is deeply involved in state, national, and international caregiving and equity initiatives, including board service with the Tennessee Caregiver Coalition and advisory roles across multiple organizations. A New America Story Fellow, she continues to write about and advocate for youth caregivers—all while caring for her mother in Nashville.

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] – Dr. Lewis begins sharing her caregiving story starting at age 11
 [3:27] – Dr. Lewis describes becoming a youth caregiver after her mother’s surgery
 [3:51] – Reading her powerful letter to her younger self
 [9:39] – Exploring what it meant to “shrink yourself” as a young caregiver
 [11:31] – The emotional and traumatic weight carried by youth caregivers
 [16:55] – How caregiving support has (and hasn’t) changed for her in adulthood
 [23:33] – Discussing the realities of youth caregiving and age-inappropriate tasks
 [25:56] – The strengths, empathy, and resilience learned through caregiving
 [26:19] – Why children often stay silent—and why naming caregiving matters
 [28:14] – Encouraging communities to proactively support caregivers
 [29:14] – The fear youth caregivers have of social service involvement
 [29:47] – How schools can play a role in recognizing and supporting caregivers
 [30:39] – Dr. Lewis’ “PS to her younger self”—a message of faith and endurance
 [31:35] – Closing reflections and gratitude for Dr. Lewis’ powerful voice

Links & Resources:

·         Tennessee Caregiver Coalition: https://tncaregiver.org/ 

·         Dr. Feylyn Lewis’ TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EPCFyeUElk 

·         Black Scholars Speak Interview YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pid2wBO8dlc 

·         National Alliance For Caregiving's Caregiver Summit Dr. Lewis talk (time stamp 1:02:21): youtube.com/watch?v=reWOmR31GJ8&am

Transcript

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So I started my journey in caregiving at age 11 due to botched spinal surgery by my mom. The surgeon took out bones that he was not meant to do and did not put in the plates and screws that he should have, and she woke up unable to walk. And I think looking back as an adult, I wish I had spoken up or spoken out more, but I also understand why I didn't you know and and I understand that for other children too, why I think what happens within families, it's also as private too, like I wouldn't consider illness and disability dirty laundry, but I also recognize it also doesn't always look pretty. Those aren't always things that you want everyone to know about. So I also understand why there's practices of silence within families. But I also know that that's not good, right? If we don't talk about it, we don't know if we don't talk about it, name it, we don't know what's happening. Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States? And by 2025 this number is expected to grow to 62 point 5,000,073% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers, the invisible employees, is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach demopoulos on the working caregivers, the invisible employees podcast, as they show you how to support working caregivers. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. From wherever and whenever you are dialing in, we appreciate you. Thank you for being here. And welcome to Working caregivers, the invisible employee Podcast. I'm Zach demopoulos. I'm Selma Archer. How you doing? You know, I'm good. I'm doing all right. Excited about our guest today. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. This lady is just amazing. We met her. Remember, as we were listening to the national caregiver summit in DC, and she was a speaker and just captivating. We just had to have her as a guest. So we are so excited to share our guests with you. Dr Phelan Lewis, hi. Dr Lewis, how are you and welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me no our pleasure. So we usually start out with a little icebreaker question, and we wanted to ask you, since you live in Nashville, what can you share with our audience about Nashville that's interesting or entertaining? Yeah, absolutely. So I think everyone knows that Nashville is known as Music City. And I think when people hear that, they often think about our country music history, but that actually, maybe little known fact is actually reaches far, far back in history. So we became known as Music City from Queen Victoria because of the Fisk Jubilee Singers. So Fisk University is at HBCU, right in town in Nashville. And the Jubilee Singers were a beautiful choir that would tour around the world. And when Queen Victoria heard them, she was like, Nashville is Music City. So that's actually where it comes from. Yeah, that is fantastic. I'm from Nashville, and I didn't know that it's country music, but it goes awesome sharing that. So let's start by having you share your amazing caregiver story. And the reason that we wanted so desperately to have you is because you became caregivers so very early in life as a child. So can you look back over that journey and just share that with us? Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start off by telling a little bit about my story, and then I'll read a letter that I wrote as inspiration to myself as a youth caregiver. So I started my journey in caregiving at age 11 due to a botched spinal surgery by my mom. The surgeon, unfortunately, he took out bones that he was not meant to do and did not put in the plates and screws that he should have, and she woke up unable to walk, and she was a healthy registered nurse before that, and our lives change instantaneously. And because of that catastrophic surgery, I became what we know as a youth caregiver at age 11, and then my older brother, he dropped out of college so that he could take care of me and my mom at age 19, so we know him now as a young adult caregiver, but that started me in our journey of caregiving for my mother, doing intimate care, bathing, washing, helping her get dressed, doing medicine administration at age 11, like so it was definitely quite a journey, and one that I look back and I'm grateful for. It was also very, very difficult. So I wanted to share this letter that I wrote as an inspiration to myself looking back as a youth caregiver. So dear 11 year old Phelan, I know nothing makes sense to you. You can tell that something is wrong. By the way, the nurses whisper outside of the hospital room and the Curt answers they give your mother while in the room, you wonder what is going on. Your mother seems so small in the bed through her drugged post operation stupor, you can tell that she is trying to connect the dots. All is not as it should be. You feel your stomach start to tie itself in knots. Will anyone explain the situation to you? No one does. Someone should have talked to you. A child life specialist should have come and taken you to the hospital cafeteria, given you an ice cream and told you what happened to your mother. A nurse should have asked your mother who resides at home with you, besides an 11 year old child. If asked, your mother would have said, No one. A social worker should have been called, but not to risk your way to foster care to ensure that your mother had home health care workers and that you were in mental health counseling. I am so sorry that professionals failed you, dear 12 year old, Phelan, it is your first day of middle school. Your brother took you to school because your mother is now disabled and can no longer drive, a group of high school boys pushed you in the hallway and stole your glasses. A high school girl teased you for your dorky lunch bag. When you get in the car after school, your brother asks you how your first day went. You lie. It was great. You lie again when you see your mother. There is so much going on at home, this lie like the bullying continues for years, your mother is wearing a back brace. Her days spit in bed. Why bother her? You shrink yourself. Your mother did not stop being your mother just because she needed care. You deserve to have someone fight for you. You should have felt safe in school. You, like the millions of other youth caregivers, were bullied because you were different. There was nothing wrong with you. Your teacher should have checked in with you over and over again. Your guidance counselor should have asked you about your home life. Your school nurse should have asked you how you were really doing. They knew your mother was disabled. They should have helped you. You shouldn't have felt alone. It was not your fault, dear, 19 year old Phelan. You are a junior in college. Your mother is in the hospital. Your mind should be on writing essays for class, but instead you are worried that your mother might die after class. You go to your mother's hospital room and sleep on a cot at her bedside. You think you should tell a friend. Isn't that what everyone always says? Open up and share. You tell your friend about your mother. Your friend is overwhelmed and does not know what to say. Never mind. You think you won't make that mistake again. You ask your therapist for any books about young caregivers like you and your brother, he does not know of any. You feel very alone. Like many other young adult caregivers in college, you are balancing academics with caregiving without support. You should have been identified as a caregiver when you entered college, and the same way England does for its university students on its common application form. Mental health practitioners should have known about youth caregivers and their unique needs. You should have been told that there are at least 5.4 million child caregivers and at least 10 million young adult caregivers in the United States. You weren't alone. You just didn't know it. Every time an adult failed you, you used it for good, you consider your life's work and research and advocacy to make sure other youth caregivers never feel alone like you did. I am so proud of you. Wow. That is amazing. That's so powerful. I mean, it's just unforgettable, really. It really is many powerful statements. One thing you said in the I think you were 12, you said, when you come home from school and when you talk to your mom, you lie. And say everything was fine, but you said you shrink yourself. Can you tell us about that you shrink yourself? That's that's really powerful to say as a child. What does that look like? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, like on reflection myself, like so many other youth caregivers, we very much understand the weight and the difficulty, the challenges, all that's going on in the home when there's still illness and disability, addiction, you know, the doctor's appointments, the threat of medical bills piling up. You know, a child is very in tune to the dynamics of a household, even if adults may want to try to shield the child out of protection, children pick up on that, and I know I certainly did at that young age. I knew that there was stress and strain in our home and for me, even though, obviously, you know, when I look back, I think, oh, I should have told someone. I should have told my mom that I was being bullied. But the reality is, I know my mom, she would have marched up to my school in her back brace make sure those kids left me alone at that young age I was taking I was trying to take on too much, and I know that now, as an adult, you know, but I think as a child, and especially as a caregiver, you know, as a youth caregiver, you know, you're trying to take on so many adult responsibilities, and that includes trying to manage and make everybody else feel okay, and doing a little bit too much as a child. And I recognize that now. You know upon reflection as an adult, wow. Dr Lewis, 1112, years old, there's so many millions of other things you should be doing as a young girl child, right? I mean, that is incredible. I also was able to lucky enough to hear your talk at the National Alliance for Caregiving, caregiver Summit. And I could, I wish I was in the room, because I imagine you moved quite a few people since then, yeah, I bet right, some of you were there. Was in tears. Yeah, tears, right? Well, you should listen to her TEDx talk too. So I did some research, and I listened to your TEDx talk after that, and I want to share a line with you, because this is just so much for 11 and 12 year old to take on. But you shared in your TEDx talk, and we'll put a link in our show notes for our listeners to check it out. It's powerful. But you said, you know, you prayed that you would, you pray to God every day, that you would take on your mom's pain, and then you would wake up in the next day and you didn't have it. And so can you just share a little more about how, how did you deal with that? Maybe, you know, in terms of as a young child, that is a strong emotional burden to be carrying on, and how did you adjust to it, and how did you overcome it? Yeah, thank you, Zach, that's a excellent question. You know, I think as a child, I think you repress and suppress those complex and complicated emotions. You know that prayer to give the pain to me rather than my mother, that's out of love, right? Like I saw my mother in pain, and that was painful to see her that way as a child. And you know now that I'm an adult, you know, thankfully, through years of therapy, so shout out to therapists. You know, I can definitely recognize that, that that's traumatic actually, what's happening to children and adolescents and caregiving roles, that's actually a lot of trauma. And that's why I really do, cannot preach enough about the important role of mental health practitioners because of that. And you know, for me, I think in terms of overcoming it, it's, I don't know if I could say I've overcame because I'm still a caregiver for my mother. And, you know, I still have that fear that feels irrational, but that's really just there, out of out of love and wanting to make sure that she's safe and okay. And I think when we look back for youth caregivers, I think what helps address some of those complicated emotions is education, so having a trusted adult be able to sit down with that child or teenager and explain what's going on with their family member, being able to have them give them the opportunity to ask questions and have answers and just have a safe space for them to talk things out, that's something that I didn't have as a child, and I think That's why I repressed and suppressed everything. But you know, looking back now, you know, we know more, and you can see, okay, yes, this is why professionals are so important. They could have intervened, and it could have been so much different. Well, just follow up, also in your TED talk, and then also listening to your letter. You know, you put a charge out there. You put a challenge to our country, you know, you, you really, you really said something powerful. You called us an emerging country, which you're right. I mean, out of all the all the established countries out there, we rank like 37 in terms of caring for working caregivers, in terms of family leave and being more supportive. And this. Isn't about poo pooing our country, if we love our country, but this is the charge to do more. In your letter, you shared how you know professionals were coming to you, but you would expect support and help, and instead, you got moved around and pretty much treated like a child. Self, and I have had conversations in this podcast with others who said providers, healthcare providers, need to also kind of step up. Instead of saying, you have cancer, maybe they need to turn to the caregiver and say, Okay, here's what you also need to be aware of as a caregiver, what do you see? Just maybe one quick, if you don't mind sharing, what's the solution to some of this? How can we do a better job with this society. Gosh, where it is, where's my magic wand? Just one, just one thing, one. You know, what I hear from children directly. They always it goes back to who they are, which is that love and devotion that they have for that family member that they're caring for. And they always say, you know, if the person that's sick in my family, or ill or disabled, if they have what they need, then that lessens the amount of caring that I have to do as a young person. So I really have to say, we have to advocate in our country for the disabled, for the sick, for the ill, for the addicted person, because theoretically that rising tide lifts all boats. So if we do more for them, and that lessens the load, I think, for caregivers across the board. I mean, I think that that's what, absolutely just one thing. There's many other things I think we should do. Yeah, so just wondering, as a child, you said you did not have that support from adults as a child caregiver. Has that changed as caregiving has evolved over the years? Do you have now the support that you need in caring for your mom? Could you talk a little bit about that? Yes, so I would say I'm very privileged in that I'm married now, so I have my husband, and we live with my mother and, you know, but it's still very difficult. You know, even with my older brother living a mile down the street, we're all working adults and and really, I say, identify as millennial, and we both are in the middle age and approaching middle age, so we're balancing that time in our career where we're really meant to focus on, you know, career advancement, but yet we're juggling coordination of doctor's appointments and therapy appointments, and I know, certainly for me, and I say this not in a complaint at all, because I recognize the privilege that I have, but as a middle class person, I fall in the gap, so I'm not eligible for any of the social services. So I so there's no outside care workers coming into her home, and I certainly couldn't afford to pay that out of pocket. So, you know, I'm thankful that I have a job that allows me to take her to her appointments and therapy appointments as needed. But it's but it's hard. You know, I would not lie to you and say that it was easy to coordinate, but it's not, you know, it's exhausting. You know, certainly I'm having to burn, what is that phrase, you know, burn candles at both ends to try to make everything work as a working caregiver. And it's difficult. But again, I do it because, one, I don't have a choice, right? The system isn't, isn't stepping in, and the system won't step in. And two, I do it out of the love and honor that I have for my mother, but it's hard. I'd like to talk a little bit about today and what you're doing now, which is amazing work I listened to also when I was doing my research on you listen to a great podcast or a segment of it, black scholars speak with this incredible young lady who's putting us to shame salvation podcast, post, she was amazing. The question she asked you was incredibly deep. So I kind of want to rephrase that question and get you to share that with our audience, and I'll put it in this format, since we have employers, HR managers, listening to us who may never have had a caregiver experience, right? So you took your caregiver experience and it really impacted what you do now. Can you share how that shaped what you do now and then? Also, maybe if you could share, like you did with the podcast host, even if you don't have a caregiving experience, something about the authentic truth that you talked about. Maybe could share a little bit about that. Yeah, thank you. So yeah, shout out to her. She's an amazing podcaster. When I was doing my Master's in Counseling, and I did a little mini dissertation, and I did it on young adult caregivers, and I realized that there was a wealth of research and advocacy work for younger age caregivers. But much of it wasn't happening in our country. Was happening in England, and that's why, you know, you mentioned about us being an emerging country, we were about 30 years behind in the field for youth caregivers. So I went over there to study, and that's really become what I call my life's work. So being able to advocate. And learn more about the experiences of children adolescents who have caregiving roles in their family. That's something I'm incredibly passionate about. I've been able to lead research projects around the world, primarily in Europe, but also here in the United States. And through all of that, you know, I recognize that we have so much to do as our country, it for our country and within it, but I also know that our caregivers are the one who are really supporting our social care network and our health care network. You know, they're doing the front line work, day in and day out, and it's important that we recognize that I, you know, I think you had asked as well about kind of the work I'm doing now. I'm really, really pleased about the work we were able to do with the Tennessee caregiver coalition, that's a premier respite organization in Tennessee. We were able to have the first ever peer support group in a local Nashville High School, the first time ever in our state. So we were excited to have that off the ground last year and be able to actually have a supportive intervention for young people in high school who are caregivers, and that's the kind of work that fuels me, that's what motivates me. That's how I seek fulfillment. Is because I want to take what happened to me, my brother, and I never want anyone else to feel as alone and as isolated as we did. Um, so it motivates the work that I do. And just one more thing about Tennessee coalition, caregiver coalition, I know a lot of states have things like that. But how would somebody benefit from that? Let's say in the state of Tennessee, yes. So if you are a caregiver, you know someone who is definitely reach out to the Tennessee caregiver coalition. They can provide respite vouchers. And when we say respite, that's a fancy word for taking a break, as we know caregivers need. But it also, not only is it taking a break, it also ensures that that person that you have care for, that they also have somebody to step in, who's a professional to take care of that loved one for you during that time that you take a break, it's been great for me as a newlywed to be able to have a respite voucher and take a vacation with My husband like we need that time as a caregiver, to have your own, you know, your own life, your own interest, have a restorative time to yourself. So highly encourage anyone you know, definitely, I know there's a wide respite network around the country, so definitely make sure that you check out in your local area, because you truly do. You truly need a break. It's so cliche to say that you can't pour from an empty cup, but it's true, you will burn yourself out in caregiving, and it will not be sustainable if you do not engage in healthy restorative practices. So please, please, please check out organizations like the Tennessee caregiver coalition or your RESPA organization in your state in terms of the research that's out there on youth caregiving, I found it very interesting, because there's different levels of caregiving and as adults as well as as youth. You know, we traditionally see young people walking the dog for the care recipient, feeding the cat or fluffing their pillow, or bringing them a glass of water, things like that, which you could expect the child to be able to do with, not a problem, but your caregiving experience was on the adult level. You were helping with daily life activities, bathing, you know, lifting, transferring, all those type of things as a 11 year old child. So I just wonder, what can you share about the things that you've learned as a child caregiver, as well as things maybe that you have learned as an adult? You know, I think the first thing is to recognize how young this is happening. So I was age 11, and we talk about inappropriate activities that children are doing. But through research, you know, I've seen where children as young as elementary and taller age are giving injections. So we know that this is happening at inappropriate levels, and I think that's always really important to name and recognize. You know, you asked, What did I learn? I learned that I am stronger than I ever could have thought. I don't see myself as a particularly, you know, strong world person. But when life, yeah, when life really hits, you recognize, like, Hey, I'm different than my peers, like we've had very different experiences. Yeah, maybe I'm tougher than I think I am. I see that, you know that I'm very persistent, and I think to be able to do my research degree, I definitely needed that, like, that gumption, that sense of no one's gonna stop me, I'm gonna do this. And I know that's because of being a youth caregiver. I think maybe one of the things I'm most proud of, and I see this reflected in the children and other teens that I get to interview with. My research is the amount of care for those who are different and vulnerable. That's what I think truly comes from. Being a youth caregiver, you understand very intimately what it's like to be different and to care for some. One else. And I actually think that's a beautiful thing. I will always be the academic who says, I don't necessarily want to stop you've caregiving. I want to put structures and buffers around it so that children can feel free to go to school, feel free to have playtime after school, join clubs, have friends, etc. But caregiving within, you know, boundaries within healthy boundaries. I think care is a good thing. I think it's helped. I think it's a beautiful, wonderful, moral thing to take care of those who are old, those who are sick. I think that's a wonderful thing in a society, and I think it's even good, even when young people engage in it, because of what it teaches us about love and care for someone else. So I never want to stop that, but I think we, you know, we have to make sure that kids are not doing inappropriate amounts of care or activities you know that are age age inappropriate for them. You know that's what I think is important but, but I love that sense of being empathetic that I think comes from being a youth caregiver, and I see that in other children, and I think that's amazing. You mentioned in your letter that you you share your journey or your what you were going through as a child with another kid in your class, and it just kind of went over their head. They had no idea. They couldn't understand it. I was wondering, did you share with any adult at school you're like a teacher or counselor or anything did? Did anyone else know what you were dealing with? Yeah, so I did not share to my teachers. They knew that my mother had about spinal surgery, knew she could no longer work, knew my brother was taking me to school, but we didn't have a language, but we didn't call it youth caregiving back then, I think now that's starting to change. I'm really grateful to you both for wanting to amplify this message and get it out there and label what children are doing for families. But, you know, I think people know what you're doing, but they don't think and don't recognize it as caregiving. And I think it's important that we do that one, because, you know, when you think about advocacy work and lobbying work, we have to have a label for something. If we don't label it, we don't name it, then what is it? It's just floating out there and the abstract thing. But yeah, when we know that there's millions of children, adolescents who are doing this, we are a group. We are a large contingent of population. So, so no, is that? It's a short answer is, No, I didn't say anything, you know, and I think, like many other children, I think I think I was just so focused on, like, don't make a fast just, you know, focus and do well in school and that. I think that's where my attention was, you know. I think looking back as an adult, you know, I wish I certainly was I had spoken I wish I had spoken up or spoken out more. But I also understand why I didn't, you know, and and I understand that for other children too. Why? I think what happens within a family is it's also as private too, like I wouldn't consider illness and disability dirty laundry, but I also recognize it also doesn't always look pretty either. So especially, think about other stigmatizing conditions that somebody might have, like a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Those aren't always things that you want everyone to know about. So I also understand why there's practices of silence within families, but, but I also know that that's not good, right? If we don't talk about it, we don't know, if we don't talk about it, name it, we don't know what's happening. Well, one of the things that Zach and I do as well, we always try to encourage people to when you know someone is struggling through a caregiver journey, don't wait for them to ask you for help. You know. You go to them and say, I'm going to do this today. I'm going to bring you a meal. I'm going to sit with your mom while you go and go skating, you know, whatever, but offer to do something. So that's part of our advocacy as well, as you know, it's letting people know. It's, it's okay, it's okay to do that. You don't have to know the details of what's going on in the household to just reach out and offer support. So that's, that's one of the, one of the big things that we have to keep advocating about, because people don't know. So it's kind of a silo from both ends. The person doesn't say for whatever reasons, and people who could help don't because they don't, they don't ask, they don't feel comfortable. So we're trying to bridge that gap. Yes, that's so important. And you know what I see as well Selma and Zach with children is, I think there's also this fear of Social Service involvement as well, and we see that start to come out in some of our research. Yeah, is that they'll say that they're afraid that they're going to take, get taken out of the home. It's always really important to make a distinction between abuse and neglect and youth caregiving very different, very much. How old was your mom at the time. Oh, so she would have been early 40s. Yeah, early. So young in her career too. Yes, wow. It sounds like we need to multiply you 50 times and get you into each day and talk to the school systems and get these conversations going, because you're not going to get a disagreement. From us that caregiving brings so much value, even to a young child. You know, there's talk about bringing financial literacy to a younger age in school systems. I think caregiving now needs to be brought to a younger age. My last question for you, Dr Lewis, again, this has been fantastic, and you have already hinted to this in your in what you just said earlier, but, but let's add a PS to your letter, PS to yourself, and in there, could you share with us what you would tell yourself at 11 years old, before that surgery to prepare yourself? Hey, here's one thing that you really need to make sure you do to help kind of make this journey a little easier on yourself. What a profound question. What would I say before I would say to myself, before the surgery that the road ahead of you is incredibly difficult and is paid with challenges that will seem insurmountable, but you can do it. Your faith will carry you through. The love that you have will carry you through. And when you fill in those moments late at night that you can't do another day you can't, you can and yeah, just just keep going. Just keep going. Yeah, you should write a book. Have you ever thought about that? I would love to write a book, but the time, just like if there could be more hours in the day? Amazing, amazing. That was incredible. Very good. Thank you very much. Thank you all. It's such a privilege to be here with you all. Thank you for hearing the message of youth caregivers calling this security on me as I was stopping you, trying to get to know you so but I was just wonderful. We're looking forward to hearing more about you, and let's get, let's bring the word cares, cares to America too, right? You did so much great stuff across the pond. Let's, let's, it's unite. In fact, some and I have had global podcast with Canada. We were scheduling one in the future with India. Love to do one with UK, if you have some suggestions over there. Well, thank you so much for being here. You're amazing. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of working caregivers the invisible employees podcast every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, invisible employee advocates.com to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers you.