Supporting Working Caregivers with Real Empathy

In this powerful and heart-expanding conversation, we sit down with Claude Silver, Chief Heart Officer at VaynerMedia and author of Be Yourself at Work, to talk about empathy, emotional bravery, and what it really means to lead with heart. We explore how music, mindset, and self-awareness shape leadership—and why the “song in your head” matters more than you think.

Most importantly, we dig into what this all means for working caregivers. How do you show up at work when life at home is heavy? How do you lead with compassion without lowering standards? And how can organizations create cultures where caregivers feel seen instead of invisible? Claude doesn’t offer clichés—she offers practical, human-centered leadership that can transform workplaces. Press play. This one will stay with you.

Claude Silver is on a mission to revolutionize leadership, talent, and workplace culture. She is the world's first Chief Heart Officer at VaynerX and partners with CEO Gary Vaynerchuk to drive their success. Silver has earned Campaign US's Female Frontier Award and AdWeek's Changing the Game Award and she electrifies audiences at national and international conferences and at organizations, including Meta, Google, US Government agencies, and the US Armed Forces. She has been interviewed on dozens of podcasts and featured in The New York Times, Fast Company, Forbes, and The Wall Street Journal. He is the author of Be Yourself at Work: The Groundbreaking Power of Showing Up, Standing Out, and Leading from the Heart.

Episode Highlights:

[0:00] – Claude opens with a powerful message about sharing your caregiving reality at work and lightening the load.

[2:00] – Zack and Selma welcome Claude and kick things off with music, authenticity, and The Cure.

[6:05] – The “song in your head” story: mindset, self-talk, and a life-changing Outward Bound experience.

[9:16] – What it really means to be yourself at work—especially for caregivers balancing home and career.

[12:04] – Embracing the mess: why perfection isn’t real at work or at home.

[16:15] – The Nana story: generosity, heart-led leadership, and the power of small human moments.

[22:05] – Scaling empathy at VaynerMedia: culture champions, psychological safety, and employee support.

[25:22] – Defining empathy: riding alongside someone without “wearing their shoes.”

[31:18] – A powerful story about a struggling leader and the hidden caregiving crisis behind performance issues.

[34:41] – How caregivers can share vulnerability at work without feeling like they’re making excuses.

[40:43] – The critical role of HR today: psychological safety, belonging, and empathetic listening.

[46:53] – Overcoming the “no budget” excuse: proving the ROI of support groups and ERGs.

[49:32] – Emotional bravery, emotional efficiency, and emotional optimism explained for caregivers.

[52:40] – Rapid fire: empathy, psychological safety, culture, and what caregivers need most from leaders.

Links & Resources:

Claude Silver – https://claudesilver.com 

Book: Be Yourself at Work by Claude Silver: https://www.claudesilver.com/book 

VaynerMedia – https://vaynermedia.com

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to follow the podcast and leave a review. Remember to check out our website at invisibleemployeeadvocates.com for more resources, and subscribe to our newsletter for updates! We’ll catch you in the next episode.

Transcript

Claude Silver: 0:00

What I am asking for is for people to take a risk and to dip a toe in the water and share some of themselves. Dip a foot in the water, share a little bit more of yourself, see if you start to lighten your load, because so many of us get into work, either get to a physical work. We put turn on our laptop at nine o'clock and we put ourselves away. And where does that go? It goes on our back, and it's heavy. It gets real heavy. But I do think it's important to say, You know what? When I go home, I have a special needs child. When I go home, I'm taking care of my elderly parent who is broke her hip when I go home. I'm taking care of my father that has dementia that takes priority in my life. I will always be online. I will always get my work done. But I have to let you know My priority is that of a caregiver. That is where my heart is.

Jodi Krangle: 0:58

Did you know that in 2020 there were 53 million caregivers in the United States, and by 2025 this number is expected to grow to 62 point 5,000,073% of these caregivers also have a job. They are called Working caregivers, and they are invisible because they don't talk about their caregiving challenges. Working caregivers. The Invisible employees is a podcast that will show you how to support working caregivers. Join Selma Archer and Zach demopoulos on the working caregivers the invisible employees podcast as they show you how to support working caregivers. You

Zack Demopoulos: 1:43

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. From wherever and whenever you are connecting with us. We appreciate you. We really do this is working caregivers, the invisible employee podcast. My name is Zach demopoulos And I'm Selma Archer. Hey, Selma, how the heck are you?

Selma Archer: 2:00

I am fantastic.

Zack Demopoulos: 2:03

Yeah, yes. So am I, by the way, this is our 35th episode, and I want to, first of all thank you as a great, amazing co host, I also want to make thank you for being a great partner. I really am so filling gratitude. Second, if I'm trying something new on this show, because I think our guest is gonna like this. So I'm gonna play a little walk up music, and everybody help me welcome the one, the only the biggest heart in this world. Can you hear. It?

Claude Silver: 2:43

Oh yes, yes, sure. Thank you. Friday, I'm in love. You got it? Zach, you got it. That's the way my heart was there.

Zack Demopoulos: 2:53

So Selma and I do our do extensive research. We bring a guest on a show and and so I've listened to quite a few podcast episodes that you've interviewed been interviewed on, and a I want to compliment you on your consistency. You're you're consistent without a doubt, and that's what makes you so authentic in my book. But second of all, you talked about how you went to the cure, like, I think, 1000 times to the concert of the cure. I apologize. And so as part of my research, I listened to 20 of their songs when I was on the treadmill. It's Friday. I'm in love. Is now one of my favorite songs every morning, because it's my mantra is, if you love Fridays, then make every day Friday, right? I mean, there you go. So let's jump right into music. Music seems to be around your world. You opened up your book, which we're going to get into, be yourself at work with song in your head. You've talked about music all the time. Tell me a little bit about why music has influenced you so much, and if you can also share a great The Cure experience. Start with that one. First, a concert experience.

Claude Silver: 4:04

Oh, my God, I've got a lot, but I'll tell you. One of my early, early cure experiences was that the old giant stadium, before the cure went on, there was a guy who came in, I guess, with a samurai sword. Now, this is a long time ago. This is like in, you know, 9192 he came in with a samurai sword and, like, was waving it around and threatening that he was going to do something to his girlfriend. He got escorted out that was like, What the heck that was a long time ago. Weird, weird, weird, weird, let's see the last time. No, not the last time, but I saw them in Italy outside of Florence, about six years ago, five years ago, and I paid to do the VIP, and so I was literally like 20 feet away from them. And that was. My 50th I did that. I went big, you know, I just, I just love them. I love them so much. And they, they have, there's a lot of, you know, they've got some dark stuff. They've got some poppy stuff. I'm down. I'm down for whatever, whatever Robert wants to sing, I'm down.

Zack Demopoulos: 5:16

Yeah, yeah. So how, how is it that music is influenced pretty much all your life.

Claude Silver: 5:22

Yeah, you know, I grew up in a household where my dad had music on all the time. He's a big Elvis fan. He's a big coasters fan, you know, he's a guy of the 50s. So we had that on all the time. And then we had like, James Taylor and Paul Simon, Simon and Garfunkel. So music is on in my house, always, always, and I, like, relied on that. And I'm a Hummer. My dad's a Hummer. And I think, you know, not only does it calm me down, yeah, but it's more than just calming down. It's like, it's just in my blood,

Zack Demopoulos: 5:59

just a follow up. You know, you talk about the song in your head. Can you? Can you tell us a little bit about that and how you use that in the book?

Claude Silver: 6:05

Yeah, so the way it transpired in the book is, I'm on this. I signed up for this 93 day Outward Bound course, which is in the wilderness. So it's wilderness leadership course. I had no business doing it. I was completely out of shape. I'm 19 years old. I'm really not in shape at all. And I was coming out of, like, a dark period in my life. I would say I was like trying to come out of a dark period. Anyway, I show up. I'm with nine young men. I'm the I'm the only woman, young woman, we're all 18 to 21 years old. We're all carrying about 80 pounds on our back. And the first day, we're already about 9000 10,000 feet up in Colorado, and we have to climb another 1000 feet. And when you're up that high, you have to, like, step, take a breath. Step, take a breath. Anyway, I was absolutely hating life. It was snowing, it was sleeting. I was miserable. The guys just charged up the hill, and I literally was just praying that I would break my leg, crack my leg, crack my knee, whatever, so I could go home and go back to doing what I was doing, which was much more comfortable than survival skills, right? And the instructor I had at the time was a woman, and she came all the way down the hill, and here she all the way down the mountain, I should say, I mean, this is steep stuff. And she looks at me, like, about two feet away from my face. It's raining, you know, it's like, it's torture. I'm crying. And she goes, What's going on in your head? And I said, Well, I'm singing that song by Nine Inch Nails, you know, head like a hole, black as your soul. I'd rather die than give you control. And she looks at me without blinking, and she says, You better get another song in your head. And that was enormous for me, because I don't think at that time I really understood two things, one, that I can actually control the song in my head. We can all control, yes, and I didn't understand the relationship to the song I was I was singing in my head. It was very dark and to the mood I was in. It wasn't helping me. And this is, you know, 1991 so there was no like, Pharrell, you know, happy. I'm happy. You know, there was no like, not, none of that. So that was really an enormous awakening for me. And I made it all 93 days and came out a very different person. But that was the first time I was like, oh yeah. We can change the song in our head. We can change the messaging that we're telling ourselves on repeat all the time. That was

Zack Demopoulos: 8:44

that thank you for sharing. And I don't think we all realize how powerful our mindset is. And I love it when you simplify it that way. It really, it really resonated with me when I read that.

Selma Archer: 8:55

Thank you. Thank you. Well, if we can talk a little bit about your book for a minute, it be yourself at work. You talk about creating environments where employees can be authentic at work. How does that look for people that are balancing work and caring for a loved one at home?

Claude Silver: 9:16

That is synergy, not balance? I would say, I don't know if there is anything such as balance anymore, but what I'll say in the book is the book is really be yourself. And then I added at work, right? Because that's where we're spending so much time. And what I'm asking for is not everyone dive into the deep end and just be like, I'm here and I'm here and I'm crazy and I dress up like a clown and oh my god, I've got so many problems at home and all of that. I'm not asking for that. That's too much. But I am asking for is for people to take a risk and to dip a toe in the water and share some of themselves. Dip a foot in the water, share a little bit more of yourself, see if you. Start to lighten your load, because so many of us get into work, either get to a physical work, we put turn on our laptop at nine o'clock and we put ourselves away. And where does that go? It goes on our back and it's heavy. It gets real heavy. So what I would to answer the question you know is really not being ashamed of what's going on in your household, not being afraid. We're all human. Every single one of us at some point in our life is going to deal with someone that is going through emotionally charged situation, someone that is in some way, shape or form, not able bodied. At some point we are going to find that it's human nature. And so I think it's extremely important to share little bits of yourself, what you're doing at home, the caregiving that you're giving, whoever it might be, whoever it might be, to. I think it's very important to make that normalized. It's it's going to happen to all of us. Now, again, I'm not saying My, how, my my my work life or my home life is the worst, and this and that and that. No one wants that. That's too much. But I do think it's important to say, You know what, when I go home, I have a special needs child. When I go home, I'm taking care of my elderly parent who is broke her hip. When I go home, I'm taking care of my father that has dementia that takes priority in my life. I will always be online. I will always get my work done, but I have to let you know My priority is that of a caregiver that is where my heart is, and that, to me, doesn't seem atrocious and it doesn't seem unreasonable, it seems normal to me, and especially if you're in a culture that welcomes people Being themselves, or at least trying to be themselves. Great.

Selma Archer: 12:04

Thank you for sharing that. Also in the book, you you introduce the concept or share the concept of embracing the mess, embracing the mess at work and Zach, I talk a lot to people that are caregiving, and they they mentioned that, you know, I went into it thinking I was going to be perfect. I was able to do everything and do it perfectly. And they found out very quickly that there's no such thing as a perfect caregiver. And in your concept about embracing the mess at work is very similar to that same concept of, when you're at work, you're not a perfect employee, because there's no such thing and it's okay, it's it's okay. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because it's really important that caregivers hear and understand that message that they can't be perfect at work and perfect at home.

Claude Silver: 13:00

Yeah, there, just like I said, there's no balance, there is no perfection. We're all, I believe, doing our best, and certainly we all want to do our best at work. We all want to get promoted. We all want to see progress and growth, of course, right? We get more money, we get a promotion. And we all want to, you know, keep our home life somewhat, not only sacred, but, like, special, if that makes any sense, like we don't want to give it all away. And so you have to come to terms with yourself that you are doing the best you can in these situations. And if you know you're not doing the best you can, then you just say something, hey, last night was really rough at home with X, Y and Z. I'm a little tired today. I might start a little bit late. I want you to know I didn't finish the job. I will finish it by end of day to day. Communication takes care of so much, and also communication about real life things, I think actually wakes up the other person. If they have a if they have a heart, they have a heart, and you say to them, You know what? Last night was really tough with my father, who's who's going through dementia, whatever it is, I really believe that the person on the other side of that message does have empathy for you. Might not know what it is that you're going through, but certainly can feel and see the pain that you're going through, but there is no perfection at all, unless you're a baseball player and you are in the batting cage, you know 1000 hours, you know every month, like there is no perfection. We're doing the best we can, and life is throwing us curve balls. Right like I am now. My parents are now 84 years old. Life has thrown me and my brother big curve balls now that we didn't expect because they've been so lively up until they were about 80. And then the next thing you know, wow. Who expected that? I expected them to be alive and vibrant and everything until they're 99

Zack Demopoulos: 15:11

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately is not the case. Unfortunately. My mother's 96 and currently in the hospital, and I'm having to deal with that. She's an amazing woman, but boy, it takes a lot. It's a huge curve ball again. Congratulations on your book, Claude. I know that it was, it's your first book, and you've been talking about it for a while, and and I think it's amazing. I loved every single part of it, and I mean it. I read it in two days. As you can see, I kind of highlighted it all. Chapter Nine, though, speaking of the heart and speaking really speaks to me. It's called speaking from the heart, and I loved how you talked about, you know, how to have conversations when the stakes are high. It's really important how to show that you care. But I got to tell you what really hit me the most in that I am a grandfather of who is the section about be a Nana, the gift of caring. And I know you dedicated this book to Nana, your grandmother. So can you share a little bit about why did you dedicate this book to her? And can you share a story about her, how she's influenced you so much?

Claude Silver: 16:15

Oh, God, Nana passed away at 101 Whoa. Yeah. She was my best friend, my person. She knew everything about me. We knew everything about one another, and she was alive long enough to see me get the Chief Heart Officer title, which is so wonderful, right? Because she and I called each other heart. She called me heart. It wasn't Claude, hi, heart. It's your heart calling like That's literally how we spoke to one another. Nana, you know, at 101 she saw it all. She was born in 1915 I mean, she went through enormous amounts of change and growth and sadness and loss, as you do when you live that long, right? So Nana emotionally raised me. Nana is continues to be the most generous person I've ever met. And so when Nana and I, I'd go home and I'd pick her up, I'd take her out to do her errands, right? And this was up until she was about 98 years old, and we go to Trader Joe's, for example. I always tell this, this is a great story, because it's true. We'd go to Trader Joe's. I'm bagging the groceries at Trader Joe's, and she hands the cashier her credit card, because she doesn't know how to use those machines. Cashier hands the credit card back, and then she looks up. She's about five foot two. She looks up and she sees the badge, the name badge, and it says, Zach. She goes, Zach. Zach says, Uh huh, because that's got people waiting in line, right? He's like, Uh huh. Would you do me a favor and have a peaceful day? You'll love it, and walks out. How do you think that cashier felt time and time and time again and on her machine, because she had a machine. It wasn't a, you know, it wasn't an answer. It wasn't like an answering service, like we have on our cell phone. She had a machine. It would go beep. Would you do me a favor and have a peaceful day. She didn't even say hi. It's bet that was the message. Who does that? Yeah, it's so much generosity of spirit and a willingness to share freely. And that is my heart.

Zack Demopoulos: 18:38

That's my heart, and to get to mine right now. Yeah, yeah. It's such a such an incredible story. I pull a question from LinkedIn. We asked LinkedIn that, if you were in front of Claude, what would you ask her? And I love this question, and I think it's related this person asked, I'd love to know how she chose this path in her life, or did the path choose her. Whoa, that's deep. That's deep.

Claude Silver: 19:03

Wow, that is deep. It's both. I mean, I think let's take you know Nana, who I just told you about. My parents are also wonderfully generous and charitable people, so I grew up with a sense of giving back all the time, and I knew at a young age that I wanted. I didn't know the words, but I knew I wanted to be of service. I knew I wanted to be a helper. Yeah, I thought I was going to be a psychotherapist for a long time, and I realized in my adolescence and my 20s that you can't help yourself until you can't help anyone, until you help yourself. And I didn't really know that. I didn't really understand that. Oh shoot, there's things I need to do first, called self awareness and all of that. But all the while, you know, in my 20s, I was living in San Francisco. I left school after my second year, my sophomore year, as I talk about in the book, and I didn't complete. College until I was 28 so I had a good chunk of time there that that life was my school. I was educated through life, through people, through experiences, and I made a point of going to this course in Sausalito for four years called the Institute of intuitive studies, intuitive studies, which taught me all about intuition and clairvoyancy and chakras and things I really believed in. I also spent a lot of time checking out different spiritualities. I was raised Jewish. I still I am Jewish, but I'm also like, I believe in Christ, I believe in the Buddha. I love the teachings that the Hindu people have. I. I think of us all as one. I don't see separation. Obviously there is separation, but I don't see separation when it comes to our hearts. And so I would say I finally got myself together enough to understand what it was like to start pouring some kindness and compassion into me, and as I started to do that and started to like myself, it was easier for me to give yeah and give freely, yeah, and there's nothing else I would do. I mean, I've I've had other jobs that certainly pay the bills, but I've always been this kind of unofficial mentor, you know, this coach. I'm always a player coach. I'm a cheerleader without the pom poms. And so I would say, I would say both. I mean, I was, I was destined to do something that helped people unblock their roadblocks that I know. And so I think basically my heart just guided me to that of service and and I think naturally I was a leader at a young age, but, um, you know, I was always the captain of the soccer team or the tennis team, and I love cheering people on. So I think, I think 70% it just found me. And 30% I found it.

Zack Demopoulos: 22:05

Maybe I love that. I love help people and block the roadblocks. I think you've used another phrase, help them turn the light on from going Good to Great, exceptional. I know Gary V your boss there is has given you some big goals there. How you doing, by the way, with touching every single person in your organization, oh my gosh, and deploying empathy. I mean, how are you doing with that? Just a

Claude Silver: 22:33

quick question, yeah, right. Like, okay, that's easy. Not that is what I realized immediately is that I was going to have to learn how to scale myself. So I'm here to scale him, and then I had to learn, okay, who can I lean on to also do this incredible work. And what I mean by incredible work is when someone's having a bad day, who can I lean on? Who can I slack to say, hey, you know, what can you do check in with Jesse? I know he's having a hard time with some the feedback he got from his boss. Or I can say, can you go check in with Sally? She's having a hard time at home. That's all I'm not going to go into divulging. Or, you know, I heard that Sam lost his grandfather last night, and I'll write someone in the London office and say, you mind taking Sam out for a coffee? Those types of things help scale empathy. And I call those people culture champions, because they are. They are champions of the culture. And then, of course, there's the people and experience team, which I started 10 years ago, which was a replacement, I guess, for HR. I had never done HR. I'd never wanted to do HR, but that was part of the deal. And so I eventually found some great leaders who now run the people and experience department. And that is that that is basically flipping HR on its head. They exist to promote and be psychological safety for people. They exist to be as unbiased as they possibly can. They exist to help solve problems, and that right there is another way to scale the empathy plus leadership and everything. So it's, you know, it's every conversation brings something new and sometimes exciting to the plate, where I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. Let's dig into that. Let's, let's find out, yeah, what's, what's blocking you? Let's find out. A lot of times I like to say, you know, what did you want to be when you were a kid, when you grew up, you know? And then sometimes that gives me a little bit of an idea of like, oh, there's a pattern here. You want to be a teacher. I understand, ah, maybe that's why you're micromanaging, right? Now, you want to be a teacher, but you don't want to fail, right? So I just think about things like that.

Selma Archer: 24:55

Talking a little bit more about empathy. We hear that so much. These days, it's like, you know, such a buzzword, especially when it comes to leaders, leadership, for leaders to have empathy. What? What is your definition of empathy? And is it something that can be taught, something that we can learn, or is it something that we get that pat on the butt when we're born? We have it when we don't like what is your definition?

Claude Silver: 25:22

So first and foremost, let's break it down. Empathy is an emotion, and the output the action is kindness and compassion. We all learn kindness and compassion at a very, very young age. So being kind to another person, oh, my heart is open. I see that you're hurting over there. I don't believe empathy is putting on your shoes. I could never put your shoes on. I don't have the lived experience of Selma or Zach, nor do you have my lived experience. So I cannot put your shoes on, but what I can do is ride next to you. I can say, Selma, I see that you're really hurting today. I'm here and I'm going to walk right beside you. I'm just going to put my metaphorical hand on your shoulder and say, You know what, I got you and you got you're going to get through this. So it's literally being a passenger with someone is what I think about with empathy, which is, quite frankly, helpful, because it also has boundaries. If you think about it, I couldn't do the work I do, and nor could you. If you were taking on everyone's stuff all day, you'd be saturated like a sponge. So there's a boundary, right? I am going to walk next to you. I want to ride shotgun with you, if you'll have me.

Selma Archer: 26:45

Wow. So for some people, what you just the example you just gave, is just a natural reaction, the natural, you know, conversation. But then for other people, it is totally foreign to them. Yeah, if you were training, you know, 100 managers who this was a foreign concept to them, how would you get them through? How would you get them to that point of having empathy for that fellow colleague?

Claude Silver: 27:16

Let me give a quick example of how that worked. One day I was in one of our other offices, and the leader of that office, the managing director, was very stone cold, never showed any emotion, never asked people how they were doing, and really cared. And so I had been hearing over and over, gosh, we really can't relate to our leader. We can't relate to our leader. He doesn't ask how we are. He doesn't seem to care. Okay, I went over to the leader's house, and we had he. He invited me to dinner, and I walk in the door with him, and his three children run on him and jump on him, you know, like he's the Second Coming. And you should have seen his face lighter. And so I said to him the next morning, when we had breakfast, you see what you did last night. You see how you are. You are with your kids. If you could do 5% of that at work, it would change the atmosphere completely. If you could show that you are human, and that you have a life outside of this robotic miss. So that's that's a big way to do it, and the really the way is through self awareness. So he and I did a shortcut through self awareness, because I actually saw it happen. And I do think you can teach people at least some of the pathways towards self awareness. Of course, I can't become self aware for anyone else. It's a lifelong journey for all of us, but that's where it starts, and to understand what your triggers are, to understand why you don't want to show that you're human at work. What is it that you're so afraid of? Meanwhile, everyone else is showing themselves. What are you so like? What is it that you have to be perfect? There is no perfection, my friend, no one's perfect. We at Vayner, it's an 8020, rule. You know, we're in the world of social media. You put something up and you see how it does. It's not perfect. You see it. People comment or they don't, if it's if they don't, you got to put something else up. So I don't think it's difficult. I think people need to have somewhat of a map and examples. That's what I think, and obviously a desire. But I do agree with you that empathy, I believe, is a buzzword now, and so a lot of times I just say kindness and compassion. Yes. Okay, great.

Zack Demopoulos: 29:45

Love, that love that I you know clause we say in New Jersey. I freaking love that story that you know that where you went to the leader's house and you and you said 5% I was thinking more like 25% but five would be amazing. I. I love that. I love that. Let's go back to the term culture champion, because, you know, I was a big fan of yours. I don't mind saying AB, I'm Google gag over you, because I'm I was in HR for 12 years, and I'm like, Where the hell were you when I was in HR? Because, you know, you're the role model to strive to be. Because I'm also not from HR. I was in sales and management. I was one of those weird birds. And when I came to New York City, I walked down the hallway, good morning, good afternoon, good morning. What is this guy on? I mean, what's wrong with this guy? And I just kept it up until people met me halfway. Culture champions was a great way for you to scale. And the reason why I want to bring this up is because one of your podcast episode interviews I listen to really drives home what Selma and I are trying to do and get working caregivers to share more in the workspace so they can try to get support more support. Can't do this alone. So the one story you told was about a leader who was acting a little tough on his direct reports, on his team members, and you shared this story about how a culture champion met up with him. And if you know what story I'm talking about, once you take it from there, do you know what happened, where he said his dad was going to an all a nursing home and he was having a difficult time? Yes.

Claude Silver: 31:18

So this, this employee who was a very high performer, started to tank. Just started to go down, down, down. And when he started to tank, he was a leader. He was taking other people down with him, you know, unbeknownst to him, and it wasn't until six months later that he told us that we found out he's been dealing with his dad in Arizona, and he had to put his dad into a nursing home after the mom died. And like, he had to go back and forth from New York to Phoenix, Arizona. And, you know, as soon as he said that to us, I remember Gary and I just being like, Oh, well, that explains it. Like that explains it. And, you know, we found out a little later in the game, right? But that's when he chose to share it. Some people don't want to share that, right? They don't want to they don't want you to know what they're going through. But the minute he shared it was like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense. What do you need from us? Yeah, you know, guy in our London office who, I think this is life on life's terms, right? His brother was murdered, his mom was disabled in a wheelchair, and they didn't have enough money for the funeral. Like this was real life. And unfortunately, I work with an extremely generous boss who helped them out, because I went to him and I said, you know, I would never go to you and ask you for anything, but like this guy's in a jam, like he's the breadwinner, yeah, and, you know, so you have, I don't know. I I just really think we always have to remember that people are going through their own stuff, and even if they don't tell you we need to remind ourselves that we are all trudging through it sometimes, you know, story, there was another, when a leader came into my my office right before covid, and he said, Can I be vulnerable with you? And I was like, of course, i i i Wait for that phrase. He told me, you know, whatever was going on. I also work at a company, and I have and Gary and I both have a belief that solutions are possible. Solutions are everywhere. They might not be your normal solutions, but we can solve just about anything. We cannot solve a health crisis, right? We can't take that away, but we can do things that will help you get more time in your day. We can do things you know, we have an incredible employee assistance program that I searched high and low for, where you get five sessions with a counselor your family does too like you can. There are ways to meet people where they are so that they don't feel they don't have to feel so uncomfortable coming to you, because that takes a lot of courage, right?

Zack Demopoulos: 34:10

I love that, and you've been really consistent about saying that you still are holding people accountable. But by the way, accountability doesn't mean coddled in them. You know it means caring about them and meeting them halfway. I love that. I love that. Here's another question from LinkedIn. So again, thank you LinkedIn community. I think it's related to what we're talking about. How can caregivers be more vulnerable at work and share what they're experiencing without coming off as giving excuses or complaining.

Claude Silver: 34:41

Yeah, so that's a, you know, I want to say that's a big one, but I don't really mean it's a big one. What I mean by that is like, again, the people hearing their stories of what they're going through, those are the people that need to soften their hearts. Those are the people that I believe need to remember. That they're human too, and they, one day, too, will most likely be giving care to someone elderly or someone that is sick. And so there's a natural vulnerability that I think we are so afraid to show in the workplace. We all, I'll get to the question, but we all feel like I'm going to put my armor up because I don't want you to get too close, because, oh, it might come off on me, right? That's one way to live. That's one way. I think you're going to be pretty lonely and isolated that way, you know, no human connection. But the other way is to, actually, I think, have that conversation in private with your boss or whomever you need to talk to and say, Listen, you know, I just want you to know I'm here. I'm fully present. And my home life's a little tough right now because X, Y and Z, right? I want you to know I'm still here. And if there's a day that you feel like I'm not fully present, please just come talk to me. That's what I think you got to first of all, you gotta help yourself out. No one is going to come up to you and say, Hey, is everything alright at home? Zach, just checking. Yeah. I mean, who's going to do that, right? Yeah. So it's like

Selma Archer: 36:12

the story, Nana wood. Nana wood, yeah, yeah.

Claude Silver: 36:15

Nana wood, you know the story I tell in the book. One of the last stories is this guy named Paul. Obviously, I've changed names in the story, and he gets on screen with me. It's covid, and you know me. I'm like, Hi. How you doing? You know, hey, I'm Claude. He says, Hi, I'm Paul. It's about 23 years old. Hi, I'm Paul. Chris told me to come talk to you. Oh, yeah, I love Chris. That's great. What's up? And he said, Well, I'm depressed. And in that moment, I was thinking to myself, Oh, I could have done 10 other things. Well, let's get you to the EAP, or let's blah, blah, blah, or let's, are you seeing a therapist, or all of these things I could have done. But instead, what I said to him was, what do you do when you're depressed? I write poetry, and I said, I want to hear your poetry. And he said, Only if you share with me your favorite poem. I have chills talking about it. So I shared a poem one of my favorites, love after love, by Derek Walcott, because I also thought it would resonate with him. Then he read me three of his poems, and we're like, crying on the on the Zoom, like I'm not. I'm not saying, Oh yeah, look at me. I'm so perfect. I'm just saying I had a choice in that moment. And we as leaders and co workers have choices on how we're going to react and what we're going to say. And if you have enough self awareness and understand that the world is what the world is, there's no utopia here, then maybe you can soften just a little bit to hear what that person has to say. That's all. I don't think it's a big lift. I really don't.

Zack Demopoulos: 38:02

I love the question. It really does boil down to how you ask your questions right at the end of the day. And I know I've heard you say soft skills. Don't like that term. It's all about hard skills and how important you are when you show up, right? What do you mean when you say that? By the way,

Claude Silver: 38:17

I mean what I just what I just said, you know, hey, you know, Paul, what do you do when you get depressed? Like you could say, that's an enormous soft skill, but it's not. It's a lot. It's called caring for another person. Yeah, we learn this when we are 4567, then somehow we get into school and all we want to do is get good grades and get into the rights college and all of that stuff, and be the whole queen. And then you get into the workplace, and you still have forgotten how to share yourself. You forgot those skills, you know, emotional intelligence skills. And then this, this idea of emotional fluency, which is it's one thing to be emotionally aware of how I feel, sad, happy, scared, curious, but then I have the ability to take a moment and choose how I'm going to react. So what happens? Maybe I would have had a bad morning, and Paul would have gotten on the on the Zoom, and I would have been like, Yeah, I'm pretty depressed with covid too. Well, he doesn't want to know how I feel. He don't care. And that's fine. Care. That's what I'm talking about. These are you just have to think through what it is to address another person. What what do you want in return? I want people to treat me well. I want people to to give me grace. That is what I want. I better be giving out grace. You know, you see, I'm passionate about this man on fire here

Zack Demopoulos: 39:58

I've been so. Looking forward to this conversation. Go ahead. Selma, I'm telling you,

Selma Archer: 40:04

in your in your podcast, lead with heart or don't lead, which was a great conversation that you had with Ronnie. I loved it, and I actually listened to it more than once. I listened to it about three times. You touched on a lot of things about the critical role of HR, and especially in this day and age and what we you know, what HR should look like if you had to put it in one sentence, and we touched on some of this already, but if you had to just boil it down to one sentence, what do you think is the most critical role for HR today.

Claude Silver: 40:43

Yeah, I think they are to be psychologically safe coaches and empathetic listeners. That's what I will say. You could also say problem solvers, but I don't really want to say that, because it's not up to them to solve the problem. It's up to us. So I know I use the word empathy, kind listeners, but I think there is, I think HR needs to move out of the bureaucracy and in defense of the company, and understand that you have no company without people. So you better get with that. And how do you get with that is you create a place where people feel safe and that they belong. There's a ton of people that don't feel like they belong, so you have crgs or ERGs, right? Not everyone looks like me, not everyone looks like Zach, not everyone looks like Selma. However, it's our job, I think, as leaders, but also in the world of HR and culture, to make sure you have employee resource groups that people can be affiliated with to find their micro culture, right? Zach might feel more comfortable talking to someone like Zach, he might not feel comfortable talking to me, or vice versa. That person that has, you know, is neurodivergent or ADHD, they might not want to talk to me. They So, we have something called VA abilities. And it's a, it's a group we, you know, we give them a budget, and they run with them. We have vein Noir. We have la benvenida. We have Shalom. We have visions, you know, we have pride, all of these places where people can find outside of HR, find a place to belong, that is essential and belonging, by the way. Yes, we can do anything externally, but it has to come in here. You have to every time you strengthen that voice inside you, and every time you show up, you are saying, I belong here. I'm going to take up space. And you deserve to take up space.

Selma Archer: 42:56

You mentioned a great example that we do here. Companies talk a lot about creating ERGs, and Zach and I are both familiar with those from our previous, you know, work experience. But in addition to that, how, how does accountability, accountability look like? I can't say that word, but you know what I mean. How does it look like for employers, when when you're talking about creating an environment, as you just said, where caregivers feel comfortable getting together and discussing their challenges and revealing their status, what does it look like for employers?

Claude Silver: 43:35

Well, first and foremost, you have to acknowledge that people need a place to go and have these conversations. And if they can't, if they're not having them outside, in some support group or whatever, we have to acknowledge that they need an outlet. And so that needs to be taken into their account of their eight hour day or their nine hour day, right? There needs to be some kind of, you know, 10% of my time, claude's time is going to be spent in the ERG of my choice, because I need that to be a high achiever. I need my people so that I can continue being a high performer, right? I need that. And I think that's one of the things. And there also has to be a budget, really, you know. So whether or not you, you know, do a bake sale, or whether or not you're, you know, celebrating black history month and you want to do something internally, those things are very important. But also, I think it's the leadership that needs to get behind all of this. So the employer, yes, the employer brand can get behind it, but I can't do it alone. I have to have all the other leaders understanding why this is so important, even though they're all my age and they might not need support group, they might not want to be a part of an ally group. You and I both know that it's essential, especially for the Gen Z and the millennials. Marc. More so than a Gen Xer like me, right? We just learned how to take care of our stuff. But these younger, this younger generation, they need to talk. They need to talk. And if we do not supply them with areas in which to talk, or an EAP that I believe is worth its weight in salt, and we expect them to be high performers, then we're failing them, because it's those two things can't coexist. I don't I do not think work is group therapy. I don't think that, but I also think work is a place to find friends. I really do. And what I'll say is one of our we have core competencies within our four walls, and core competencies belong to everyone. They're either the functional ones. So if you are a creative person, you know how to use Photoshop, that's a skill. But everyone has the same foundational core competencies, accountability, communication, growth, mindset and leadership and at every level that you are at those grow and grow and grow. So I cannot expect a first year career person to know what it's like to be the bigger person in every situation. I just can't. But by the time you're a VP or an SVP, yeah, I expect you to be the bigger person. I expect you to be the one that knows how to say, You know what? That's my bad. That was my bad, right? Take accountability. It's also into the culture that we have, which is it wasn't always like that. It was post covid that we finally landed on those core competencies

Selma Archer: 46:40

you mentioned budget. I wonder. You know, a lot of times we went into leaders that say, well, we don't have the budget to have programs to support caregivers. How do you overcome that challenge?

Claude Silver: 46:53

What do you say to Yeah, okay, so quickly, I'll tell you a story. When I was living in London at one of the companies I lived, I worked at, I knew that there were a swath of people just like me that wanted to get together here and there, and needed some co mentorship. And I went to the CFO, and I said I was a pretty senior person there. And I said, you know, be great if we could have, like, $6,000 6000 pounds, whatever, you know, to do a book club, to do, you know, bake sale, to go out once in a while, to the pub, whatever. Nope, nope, nope. And so what I said to him is, if I come back and show you data that I'm going to take this group and in nine months, we're going to I'm going to show you some data, will you be open to it? Yes. So in nine months, sure enough, I took a pulse survey in the beginning, where people feeling engaged, disenfranchised, so forth and so on. And then nine months later, we had a 30% lift. And that's real

Selma Archer: 47:51

data, and it did give us 6000

Claude Silver: 47:55

so that's, you know, that's nothing. $6,000 to take care of your people. That's nothing. Yeah, we have a parent. We have a parent and parent caregiver group at at Vayner, which is one of our our crgs, and it is so important for us to acknowledge that we have not all, not all people are parents, there are caregivers, there are grandparents, there are other ways in which you are nurturing and nourishing a child also, and so you just have to be able to, like, flip the aperture just a tiny bit. So if you don't have the money, then see if you can still make the group don't change who you are. Be that person, and see if there's a lift. Everyone needs support somewhere.

Selma Archer: 48:41

Yes, great. Thank you. Yeah.

Zack Demopoulos: 48:44

Thank you so much, guy. I can't believe we're almost out of time here. So just two last questions. Selma will give you one. I'll give you one, but let's go back to your book again. We'll leave a link for all those of you who are working out listening to this on you know, don't worry. Just go to our show notes. We'll give you a link on how to learn more about cloud and and her book, but there's something in here that really applies to working caregivers. I'm gonna ask you about. You talk about three pillars, you know, emotional bravery, emotional efficiency and emotional optimism, which is one that really set true with me when I read what you meant by that. But I love for you to share with our viewers and listeners, a working caregiver. Does not want to be told things are going to be all right. They hate that. It's positive toxicity. Tell us what you mean by emotional optimism.

Claude Silver: 49:32

Emotional optimism is basically saying, You know what? It sucks right now, absolutely sucks, but I have faith that things will get better. I'm going to use my support groups. I'm going to talk to this person. The sun will shine eventually. It's not going to be dark all day. It's not going to just it, not things are not going to just go down. So the optimism is, if empathy is I feel you, optimism is I believe. In you. So having that agency for yourself. I believe in Claude. I do. I've done a lot of work to believe in me, and I might have a terrible meeting with my boss, and I might just go home and I'm crying and I think I want to quit. Okay, it's not the end of the day Claude. It's not the end of the day. I'm going to call my best friend, who I talk about in the book, she's going to coach me down, and the next day I'm going to go and say to my boss, you know what? I'm going to be shaking in my boots, but I'm going to be brave. I'm going to take action and say, you know, I'm a little nervous here, but yesterday's conversation left me very uneasy. Can we find 15 minutes this week to talk about it? Emotional optimism is you don't have to sit in the depths forever. There are other ways out, but it's not everything's going to be peaches and cream, especially as a caregiver. It's not you're going to have to deal with some very dark days, but you can control yourself. You can control the music in your head, the bravery is taking that step forward, being in action, making sure that I'm just not like talking to myself and imagining things are going to get great Claude because I'm talking to a wall. I have to do something that's going to be uncomfortable, but I can do it because I believe in myself or my team or my and then the efficiency is, the more you do it, the faster you get through these things. You don't have to wallow in the drama, wallow in the shit. This day sucks, every day sucks. Why do I do this? Right? That's, that's really it. The it's, it's emotional efficiency, emotional clarity, getting through this hard stuff, but faster, so that you don't have to dwell in it all the time. We dwell. We love drama. We love drama. Drama slows us down. There is no efficiency in drama. You just bring everyone into your black cloud, not fun.

Zack Demopoulos: 51:58

I so appreciate what you're sharing, and I hope working caregivers listening. I hope, HR, I hope leaders that are listening really, really read, read cause book, because I never really thought of it that way when I was reading it. It really made sense. You know, it's more about believing that and saying, oh, everything's gonna be fantastic. And as caregivers, it's it is lonely and it gets dark, and that song in our head does tend to be a little bit like the one that you told us about at the beginning. So you know, I appreciate that so much. All right, Selma, let's we're going to do some kind of fun to wrap this up.

Selma Archer: 52:30

Right? All right, ready? Yes, we are. Yeah. Rapid some rapid fire questions for you. Karate, if you could just finish these statements,

Claude Silver: 52:40

empathy is being a passenger with someone.

Selma Archer: 52:45

The biggest mistake leaders make is

Claude Silver: 52:48

thinking that they don't need to be vulnerable themselves.

Selma Archer: 52:52

Psychological safety requires

Claude Silver: 52:56

patience, active listening and a desire to put your ego in the backseat.

Selma Archer: 53:01

Caregivers need leaders, who

Claude Silver: 53:04

who love, who care, who lead with love.

Selma Archer: 53:10

Culture is not perks,

Claude Silver: 53:12

it's it's what happens in the hallway, those small, little conversations and those small moments that make up the masses.

Selma Archer: 53:22

Wow, that's awesome. That's all I have drop that.

Claude Silver: 53:28

Yeah, thank you guys. Thank you so much. That's great.

Zack Demopoulos: 53:34

How can people learn more about you? Where can they find you?

Claude Silver: 53:38

Oh, Claude silver.com my website, Claude silver.com, I'm really active on LinkedIn, as you know. Write me, go check out the book. If you can't afford the book, write me, I'll send you the book like this is a book that needs to be in people's hands. It's not hard. This is not rocket science. This is easy. It starts with self awareness, and it starts with a desire to do something that's bigger than yourself with people. Wow.

Zack Demopoulos: 54:06

Thank you so much. Claude, you've been you've been a joy and amazing that you came here with heart and all as I expected.

Claude Silver: 54:13

Thank you so much. Zach, thank you so much. Appreciate you both.

Jodi Krangle: 54:17

Thank you for tuning in. Be sure to catch new episodes of working caregivers, the invisible employees podcast every other Tuesday. Please also visit our website, invisible employee advocates.com to subscribe to our newsletter, purchase our book and learn more about how we can help you strengthen your workplace to become more supportive of working caregivers. You you.